Airline Jock's flying Charter!
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Airline Jock's flying Charter!
There are a number of South African employed airline pilots doing freelance charter in their off time. 
Even more concerning is that the majority of these pilots are flying for our best paid airline!
After attempting to put a stop to this through the normal channels with no success I've decided to resort to 'gorilla tactics'. SO
I'll start of by asking nicely - If you are employed by a South African airline please show your professionalism and refrain from flying 'freelance charter'.
Even more concerning is that the majority of these pilots are flying for our best paid airline!After attempting to put a stop to this through the normal channels with no success I've decided to resort to 'gorilla tactics'. SO
I'll start of by asking nicely - If you are employed by a South African airline please show your professionalism and refrain from flying 'freelance charter'.
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And your problem with this is what, exactly?
What, the big dog is eating out of your dish?
What is unprofessional about flying and being paid for it, anyway, whether that is flying on the line or doing freelance charter? It's a free market and if some big-deal alirline captain wants to do charter, flying a humble bug-smasher with an ATPL, well, it still beats that Scientology clown flying a 707 on a PPL with four stripes!
Get back to us in about 20 years and tell us if you have changed your mind about this, please.
What is unprofessional about flying and being paid for it, anyway, whether that is flying on the line or doing freelance charter? It's a free market and if some big-deal alirline captain wants to do charter, flying a humble bug-smasher with an ATPL, well, it still beats that Scientology clown flying a 707 on a PPL with four stripes!
Get back to us in about 20 years and tell us if you have changed your mind about this, please.
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...If you are employed by a South African airline please show your professionalism and refrain from flying 'freelance charter'.
Next time, ask if you can fly with those individuals - You might just LEARN something.
For the record, our South African Airline does not allow us to do "outside" flying except for the purpose of keeping a rating valid or for the purpose of obtaining a higher license - we work hard enough as it is...
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We were all there once...
Well, many if not most of us!
I once noted with interest one of our semi-feral Germans deciding that he and he alone was the logical choice to take all those aircraft delivery trips back-and-forth between Germany and West Africa. None of the rest of us had his experience, since he was the one who assigned the trips, the greedy git!
To pop up here "troubling deaf heaven with your bootless cries" will not get you much sympathy since almost anyone in aviation for very long gets used to being crapped upon from a great height; it is just part of how the game is played. Of course one would rather have a highly-experienced four-striper as his aerial chauffeur instead of some newbie, that is just "market forces" at work, the same thing that drives one to hire an air taxi in the first place instead of hitching a ride in a bakkie almost for free.
Where does "passion" come into it anyway? I have a lot of passion for motorsport but those bastards at Ferrari just laugh at me when I ask for a spin in one of their Formula One cars. Life is unfair.
I once noted with interest one of our semi-feral Germans deciding that he and he alone was the logical choice to take all those aircraft delivery trips back-and-forth between Germany and West Africa. None of the rest of us had his experience, since he was the one who assigned the trips, the greedy git!
To pop up here "troubling deaf heaven with your bootless cries" will not get you much sympathy since almost anyone in aviation for very long gets used to being crapped upon from a great height; it is just part of how the game is played. Of course one would rather have a highly-experienced four-striper as his aerial chauffeur instead of some newbie, that is just "market forces" at work, the same thing that drives one to hire an air taxi in the first place instead of hitching a ride in a bakkie almost for free.
Where does "passion" come into it anyway? I have a lot of passion for motorsport but those bastards at Ferrari just laugh at me when I ask for a spin in one of their Formula One cars. Life is unfair.
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20 years later
Chuks,
I have to say that this is twenty years later and I am still with RSA on this one. They were doing it then and are still doing it now. Then they were taking away my livelyhood and now they are taking somebody else's.
They are mostly well paid and dont need the money. Besides, as someone pointed out, it is illegal according to their ops manuals.
If they feel so passionate about general aviation, go do a "Scully" and fly something that is not taking money and hours from youngsters who are only trying to progress. And if they really feel the need to put something back into aviation and/or teach the youngsters a thing or two, let them go do instruction. That is a worthwhile cause.
Safe flying,
Sir O
I have to say that this is twenty years later and I am still with RSA on this one. They were doing it then and are still doing it now. Then they were taking away my livelyhood and now they are taking somebody else's.
They are mostly well paid and dont need the money. Besides, as someone pointed out, it is illegal according to their ops manuals.
If they feel so passionate about general aviation, go do a "Scully" and fly something that is not taking money and hours from youngsters who are only trying to progress. And if they really feel the need to put something back into aviation and/or teach the youngsters a thing or two, let them go do instruction. That is a worthwhile cause.
Safe flying,
Sir O
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I understand your point but...
Market forces still rule.
If someone really cares, don't waste time moaning to fellow sufferers here. Go drop a note to SAA with name, date and registration to ask why Captain X doesn't need to stick to the rules. Or find some gentleman of the press who needs to do a story about greedhead airline captains grabbing trips from deserving neophytes while flaunting the rules.
Just remember if you do that though, "What goes around, comes around!" If you end up on the wrong side of the "old boys' network" then you might as well forget getting very far ahead so that my advice is not to do these things. You might end up like ALPA's Timmy "Milkman" Martins, famous for all the wrong reasons, if you inspire a write-up about "Moaning Newbies Face Grim Future Selling Burgers!" instead of "Captain X Is A Greedy Swine!"
What this comes across as is "special pleading," sort of saying that even though it is a rough row to hoe getting a foothold in aviation, you should be treated with consideration by some four-striper. Well, why? Do you also expect to go to the head of the check-out line at the market because you are in a hurry? The best thing is to stop moaning and sort out a solution to the problem, either simple denunciation (when no one likes a rat) or else just sucking it up and laughing it off.
It is funny you should mention that but I am just in the middle of doing an on-line CFI renewal for my FAA CFI (Airplane, Instrument, Multi-engine, Gold Seal, Ground Instructor Instrument Advanced). Oh, and I also have a JAR FI that I haven't even used yet!
So I am sat on the fence; I would have no compunctions about grabbing a trip off some starving youngster if that were done fair and square yet I do try to put something back, yes.
If someone really cares, don't waste time moaning to fellow sufferers here. Go drop a note to SAA with name, date and registration to ask why Captain X doesn't need to stick to the rules. Or find some gentleman of the press who needs to do a story about greedhead airline captains grabbing trips from deserving neophytes while flaunting the rules.
Just remember if you do that though, "What goes around, comes around!" If you end up on the wrong side of the "old boys' network" then you might as well forget getting very far ahead so that my advice is not to do these things. You might end up like ALPA's Timmy "Milkman" Martins, famous for all the wrong reasons, if you inspire a write-up about "Moaning Newbies Face Grim Future Selling Burgers!" instead of "Captain X Is A Greedy Swine!"
What this comes across as is "special pleading," sort of saying that even though it is a rough row to hoe getting a foothold in aviation, you should be treated with consideration by some four-striper. Well, why? Do you also expect to go to the head of the check-out line at the market because you are in a hurry? The best thing is to stop moaning and sort out a solution to the problem, either simple denunciation (when no one likes a rat) or else just sucking it up and laughing it off.
It is funny you should mention that but I am just in the middle of doing an on-line CFI renewal for my FAA CFI (Airplane, Instrument, Multi-engine, Gold Seal, Ground Instructor Instrument Advanced). Oh, and I also have a JAR FI that I haven't even used yet!
So I am sat on the fence; I would have no compunctions about grabbing a trip off some starving youngster if that were done fair and square yet I do try to put something back, yes.
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Well as there is a lot of it going on (certainly in Cape Town), the answer is simple then............. RSA, get names and report them to their bosses as it is done contrary to company policy.
Semantics says that even Kulula and 1Time are "South African" Airlines
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Firstly I would like to say that I am one of those who has and will fly outside of the Airline. In some and most of our cases we do have written permission to fly and train outside of our airline, as long as we stay within company flight and duty limitations.
There are always three sides to a good argument.
From my point of view and what I have seen there is a very limited amount of Airline pilot’s that actually do freelance work. Hence, feel the witch hunt seems more like a personal vendetta.
On the other side of the coin it is not possible to keep all the proficiency ratings current and fly without a lot of dedication. In other words the income versus effort is very limiting; hence I very much doubt they do it for the money.
It is a generalisation but many guys who fly freelance are dedicated to general aviation and do the work with passion, passing on information and knowledge. Usually there is a lot more background to each person, than pure financial greed. As QNVS said you may learn a lot from them.
Professionalism is NOT resorting to ‘gorilla tactics’ to destroy some-one else’ input in General Aviation, but rather improving your own.
This industry is small, and usually the same guys who are involved in GA are the ones the help advance the careers of the people they meet. But it can work in reverse.
So in summary, concentrate on your own career and not other peoples. I am sure they are not stealing that much bread from your table. You may well find yourself one day wanting to put/get back to GA.
There are always three sides to a good argument.
From my point of view and what I have seen there is a very limited amount of Airline pilot’s that actually do freelance work. Hence, feel the witch hunt seems more like a personal vendetta.
On the other side of the coin it is not possible to keep all the proficiency ratings current and fly without a lot of dedication. In other words the income versus effort is very limiting; hence I very much doubt they do it for the money.
It is a generalisation but many guys who fly freelance are dedicated to general aviation and do the work with passion, passing on information and knowledge. Usually there is a lot more background to each person, than pure financial greed. As QNVS said you may learn a lot from them.
Professionalism is NOT resorting to ‘gorilla tactics’ to destroy some-one else’ input in General Aviation, but rather improving your own.
This industry is small, and usually the same guys who are involved in GA are the ones the help advance the careers of the people they meet. But it can work in reverse.
So in summary, concentrate on your own career and not other peoples. I am sure they are not stealing that much bread from your table. You may well find yourself one day wanting to put/get back to GA.
Está servira para distraerle.
I will say at the beginning that I find myself entirely in agreement with Sir O on these matters.
The subject has been raised on Pprune before. The specific context of complaint which I can remember was instruction and in particular part time instruction.
However, it might be worth reflecting that perhaps the general aviation accident statistics are as low as they are in South Africa precisely because grizzled old dogs are poaching the flying fun from the mouths of the youthful and inexperienced.
I fear to say that the situation is historically entirely normal and short of breaking a few knee caps in the car park one dark winter morning, will remain so.
Soldiers get shot at in the dawn attack, the officers breakfast on bread and brandy. No doubt some of the officers today are as undeserving as their counter parts in the past.
The subject has been raised on Pprune before. The specific context of complaint which I can remember was instruction and in particular part time instruction.
However, it might be worth reflecting that perhaps the general aviation accident statistics are as low as they are in South Africa precisely because grizzled old dogs are poaching the flying fun from the mouths of the youthful and inexperienced.
I fear to say that the situation is historically entirely normal and short of breaking a few knee caps in the car park one dark winter morning, will remain so.
Soldiers get shot at in the dawn attack, the officers breakfast on bread and brandy. No doubt some of the officers today are as undeserving as their counter parts in the past.
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Cavorts welcome back,
Bekkers, let me say at the outset that I have very little respect for the guys doing this. The ones I came across in the pubs in Sua Pan, Jwaneng, Beira, Lubumbashi, etc, might have had a passion for aviation. But mostly were only too glad to brag openly about how much they were earning "tax-free", Money under the table" for this charter and that they did NOT record the hours in their logbook.
I never ratted a guy out, but now think differently. Next time I have a name, I will let it slip. Most of the culprits in those days were guys who had never had to go the charter route and try survive on freelance work. They came from the SAAF or very wealthy families, or had a Dad on the interview panel. But they honestly had no clue what it was like trying to build hours and support a family.
Sorry guys and Girls, but I still don't buy it.
Sir O
Bekkers, let me say at the outset that I have very little respect for the guys doing this. The ones I came across in the pubs in Sua Pan, Jwaneng, Beira, Lubumbashi, etc, might have had a passion for aviation. But mostly were only too glad to brag openly about how much they were earning "tax-free", Money under the table" for this charter and that they did NOT record the hours in their logbook.
I never ratted a guy out, but now think differently. Next time I have a name, I will let it slip. Most of the culprits in those days were guys who had never had to go the charter route and try survive on freelance work. They came from the SAAF or very wealthy families, or had a Dad on the interview panel. But they honestly had no clue what it was like trying to build hours and support a family.
Sorry guys and Girls, but I still don't buy it.
Sir O
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Well, clearly there's still some efficiency to be had if these guys have hours to spare in terms of FDP/max hours....Speaking for myself, I reckon I'm being squeezed for most of the hours of the day (and night) - not too much 'extracurricular' flying being done, we're all too knackered! Thats IF we had legal hours to spare...this isn't at SAA of course.
But hey, it's a tough old world.....
But hey, it's a tough old world.....
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Difference is he wasn't taking time off from the 747 to fly the CV580. The company operating the 747 had closed due to their aircraft being wrecked in Nigeria. He began flying the CV580 after that to earn a living, just like anyone else.
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Airline Pilots doing Charter
Guys i must agree this is going on and it always will. We are not going to stop them. They have their special reasons for doing charter. Some say to keep up ratings..........dont they do that in SAA or whatever South African Airline they fly for. Some say to put back something in general aviation.....maybe. what happens to the money they earn for their salary if they are that passionate about putting something back. They receive training and a damn good salary from the airline they fly for.
As far as putting something back i agree with guys doing instruction and even better being DE's . That is where you learn NOT being on a charter with an airline pilot sitting chewing your ear off about how they do it in the airline and how good their training is when you have to show them how to use the FMS and various other things in the plane because they have not flown it for 6 months. GA flying is very different to airline flying because we do everything from clearances to paying landing fees etc . We dont just sit in the cockpit and wait for the load sheet to sign.
Dont see any airline pilots volunteering to take leave and go and fly contracts in Afghanistan or someother tough place to live in do we now...........wonder why
I am against this practice and agree with Sir O. I dont have to worry about the wheel that turns because i am not in an airline. My question is how do the airline guys fit in charter work if they fly so much in the airline and how do they adjust their FDP. They have to apply 2 sets of rules for FDP. their airlines rules and the charter companies rules. I blame the charter queens for some of this but hey the lads get away with it.
As for cape town airline pilots just look at the searay planes in cape town flown by professional saa pilots for many years, openly flaunting their ability to fly those planes. They had the owners fork out sim courses for about 8 pilots (SAA) (I speak under correction about the number of pilots) and on top of that they had their normal work at SAA. Fortunately tht has stopped now. Wonder what dassie and the boys are doing now.........................
Now BECKERS where is the justice in that. Please tell me why GA must pay for an airline pilot to fly.
This will never change because airline management are not concerned about anything than their financial side as long as the pilots fly and CAA is happy GA must suffer and new guys on the block just sit and wait . Been there done that and see it still happening.
MAYBE AIRLINE PILOTS ARE NOT HAPPY BEING AT HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES IN THEIR SPARE TIME AND HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO
As far as putting something back i agree with guys doing instruction and even better being DE's . That is where you learn NOT being on a charter with an airline pilot sitting chewing your ear off about how they do it in the airline and how good their training is when you have to show them how to use the FMS and various other things in the plane because they have not flown it for 6 months. GA flying is very different to airline flying because we do everything from clearances to paying landing fees etc . We dont just sit in the cockpit and wait for the load sheet to sign.
Dont see any airline pilots volunteering to take leave and go and fly contracts in Afghanistan or someother tough place to live in do we now...........wonder why
I am against this practice and agree with Sir O. I dont have to worry about the wheel that turns because i am not in an airline. My question is how do the airline guys fit in charter work if they fly so much in the airline and how do they adjust their FDP. They have to apply 2 sets of rules for FDP. their airlines rules and the charter companies rules. I blame the charter queens for some of this but hey the lads get away with it.
As for cape town airline pilots just look at the searay planes in cape town flown by professional saa pilots for many years, openly flaunting their ability to fly those planes. They had the owners fork out sim courses for about 8 pilots (SAA) (I speak under correction about the number of pilots) and on top of that they had their normal work at SAA. Fortunately tht has stopped now. Wonder what dassie and the boys are doing now.........................
Now BECKERS where is the justice in that. Please tell me why GA must pay for an airline pilot to fly.
This will never change because airline management are not concerned about anything than their financial side as long as the pilots fly and CAA is happy GA must suffer and new guys on the block just sit and wait . Been there done that and see it still happening.
MAYBE AIRLINE PILOTS ARE NOT HAPPY BEING AT HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES IN THEIR SPARE TIME AND HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO
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This kind of thing happens all over the world.
I know a few guys that fly for the big boys in the states that fly Biz Jets around on there free time.
The question here is it wrong? Well I don’t know and will not answer that one.
The small airlines do indeed like the experience that guys have.
I know a few guys that fly for the big boys in the states that fly Biz Jets around on there free time.
The question here is it wrong? Well I don’t know and will not answer that one.
The small airlines do indeed like the experience that guys have.