Airlink Accident in George 7 December '09
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Are we 100% sure that the runway was actually resurfaced, I've noticed work being done at night over the last few weeks, but I've only seen them working on the taxiways, not the runway itself.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Grooved runways
Grooved runways make a significiant difference in wet conditions.
IIRC the runway in PE was grooved years back only after a SAA 737 overran the runway after landing in wet conditions
IIRC the runway in PE was grooved years back only after a SAA 737 overran the runway after landing in wet conditions
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There is a crew management problem at Link. Crew complain of salaries saying Link pilots are worst paid in industry, which resultantly does not attract better pilots.
This snowballs as more experienced and better ones seek better opportunities as soon as they have built reasonable hours and new entry level are one's prepared to work cheaply in order to only build hours.
Example is cited of two very young recently appointed single piston rated with 500 hours t/t, sent for Sim training and conversion, now starting as BAE-146 FO's.
It is alleged that investigators should start looking at crew morale, human resources management, and CRM, before they even delve deeper into technical and maintenance aspects.
Old addage: Pay peanuts - Hire monkeys, or at least not the better that is out there.
This snowballs as more experienced and better ones seek better opportunities as soon as they have built reasonable hours and new entry level are one's prepared to work cheaply in order to only build hours.
Example is cited of two very young recently appointed single piston rated with 500 hours t/t, sent for Sim training and conversion, now starting as BAE-146 FO's.
It is alleged that investigators should start looking at crew morale, human resources management, and CRM, before they even delve deeper into technical and maintenance aspects.
Old addage: Pay peanuts - Hire monkeys, or at least not the better that is out there.
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The tone of that suggests crew morale, ability and experience might have had something to do with the track record. That in turn suggests crew error. It would be inappropriate to comment further on the obvious.
But keeping along those lines as suggested, plenty of airlines have what are preceived as poor working conditions. That's no reason for a series of crashes or 'incidents' as they are humanely referred to. (It sounds like calling genocide 'ethnic cleansing'?)
Nothing wrong with two totally inexperienced first officers flying in the rhs of a simple jet - not my personal ideal but never mind. Presumably minimum experience requiremens are laid down in the ops manual which has been approved by the CAA?However, such crewing scene presupposes that for some hundred hours or more, any captain with whom they fly will be functioning as a line training captain even if he only has the experience to be a line captain. Also-plenty of captains absolutely do not want to be line training captains! Presumably, if true, these two fo/s were before an interview board of Airlink and presumably someone from the training section was on that panel. At least, it is true to say that such would be normal?
It is not fair to refer to Airlink crews as monkeys even if they may be. There is not a lot of opportunity out there at the moment and anyway, if a 500hr single pilot can pass an 1179 or equivalent and IR on a BA146-he is not doing too badly in the actual flying stakes. But that is a small part of the total picture.
If Airlink has three fleets, BA41, Emb 145 and BA 146-are the all under the control of one chief training captain and/or one chief pilot? I think that such an operations manual would not be approved in Europe. But then of course, this is blue sky country.
But keeping along those lines as suggested, plenty of airlines have what are preceived as poor working conditions. That's no reason for a series of crashes or 'incidents' as they are humanely referred to. (It sounds like calling genocide 'ethnic cleansing'?)
Nothing wrong with two totally inexperienced first officers flying in the rhs of a simple jet - not my personal ideal but never mind. Presumably minimum experience requiremens are laid down in the ops manual which has been approved by the CAA?However, such crewing scene presupposes that for some hundred hours or more, any captain with whom they fly will be functioning as a line training captain even if he only has the experience to be a line captain. Also-plenty of captains absolutely do not want to be line training captains! Presumably, if true, these two fo/s were before an interview board of Airlink and presumably someone from the training section was on that panel. At least, it is true to say that such would be normal?
It is not fair to refer to Airlink crews as monkeys even if they may be. There is not a lot of opportunity out there at the moment and anyway, if a 500hr single pilot can pass an 1179 or equivalent and IR on a BA146-he is not doing too badly in the actual flying stakes. But that is a small part of the total picture.
If Airlink has three fleets, BA41, Emb 145 and BA 146-are the all under the control of one chief training captain and/or one chief pilot? I think that such an operations manual would not be approved in Europe. But then of course, this is blue sky country.
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Has anybody thought of the irony of who is carrying out this investigation into a landing on a wet runway? Is he not the leader of this formation: "HARVARDS "The runway is wet - MyVideo ?? !!
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Hi everyone,
I know Scully is one of the most experienced aviators in SA and one with considerable skill. But does one not think that if an airline was to bring in an expert to review their procedures, should this expert not have relevant (and current) experience with the a/c types that the airline operates (at least one of the types with assistance for other types).
No disrespect Scully
Assy
I know Scully is one of the most experienced aviators in SA and one with considerable skill. But does one not think that if an airline was to bring in an expert to review their procedures, should this expert not have relevant (and current) experience with the a/c types that the airline operates (at least one of the types with assistance for other types).
No disrespect Scully
Assy
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reptile said
I imagine they were Comair pilots who fly BA franchise aircraft and not BA pilots per se. Now I know we all like tight but I think George is a bit too tight for a 777 or 747
Your first two points are very relevant and are almost certainly contributing factors. As for the long landing, I'm not too sure. I diverted to GRJ about 40mins after the ERJ parked in the weeds and had a long chat to the BA captain that was at the hold when Link landed. According to him the approach looked normal and they touched down just after the piano keys. It is virtually impossible to accurately judge approach speed as an outside observer and we'll have to wait for the FDR to see if they were too fast.
They nearly made it by the way - according to the BA crew they were slow (walking pace) by the time they got on the grass. The steep slope and the wet grass came into play however, making the outcome inevitable.
They nearly made it by the way - according to the BA crew they were slow (walking pace) by the time they got on the grass. The steep slope and the wet grass came into play however, making the outcome inevitable.
I imagine they were Comair pilots who fly BA franchise aircraft and not BA pilots per se. Now I know we all like tight but I think George is a bit too tight for a 777 or 747
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Standby a moment..I though that Scull'y wrinkles were caused by g...
The appointment heads off the deranged Indians (the CAA) at the pass. It forestalls them bringing in a firm of safety consultants from overseas-as if they would? Did Airlink get permission for Scully's appointment from the CAA and if not then why did they CAA not make their own recommendations or suggestions. It's a neat trick that managment have pulled off and it may benefit the airline emoployees. It certainly benefits Airlink in that it is stilll flying. Soon no doubt, Scully's picture will appear on bill boards or even on TV, telling the world of SA that he'd fly on water with the airline.
An attitude that is cynical possibly but which seems to fit the personality profiles as read here in Pprune.
The appointment heads off the deranged Indians (the CAA) at the pass. It forestalls them bringing in a firm of safety consultants from overseas-as if they would? Did Airlink get permission for Scully's appointment from the CAA and if not then why did they CAA not make their own recommendations or suggestions. It's a neat trick that managment have pulled off and it may benefit the airline emoployees. It certainly benefits Airlink in that it is stilll flying. Soon no doubt, Scully's picture will appear on bill boards or even on TV, telling the world of SA that he'd fly on water with the airline.
An attitude that is cynical possibly but which seems to fit the personality profiles as read here in Pprune.
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How is Scully going to have time for this investigation if he is working for Mango?? or can he walk on water as well as fly on water. Surely a Non South African appointed by CAA would be a better bet. Something is wrong at SA Airlink and is starting to become more public now which cannot be a good thing.
Did Scully and JVJ not work together at SAA at some time - Neutrality??
Has CAA actually sanctioned this appointment or has Scully's reputation just paved the way. Wonder if he will work a conversion into the deal for his pension scheme like he tried with a large food chain company who has an aeroplane.
Did Scully and JVJ not work together at SAA at some time - Neutrality??
Has CAA actually sanctioned this appointment or has Scully's reputation just paved the way. Wonder if he will work a conversion into the deal for his pension scheme like he tried with a large food chain company who has an aeroplane.
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Oh dear me. It does begin to look as though the CAA are in a pickle of hot dog proportions. Perhaps their international reputation will soon score an own goal?
Did they allowed one accident and one serious incident to pass by without doing anything. Now another accident passes by with no action of any discernible nature by them. So is the CAA contributory vicariously and by default for the last accident by the virtue of having done nothing about the first two? I think it would be quite uncomfortable for the CAA if Airlink crash again. They would probably then have to make a statement next week about that.
Did they allowed one accident and one serious incident to pass by without doing anything. Now another accident passes by with no action of any discernible nature by them. So is the CAA contributory vicariously and by default for the last accident by the virtue of having done nothing about the first two? I think it would be quite uncomfortable for the CAA if Airlink crash again. They would probably then have to make a statement next week about that.
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I dont know what you all's problem with Scully Levine's appointment is. He has been appointed by Airlink to perform an own in house evaluation of their performance and standards. It is a company initiative and has absolutely nothing to do with the CAA.
DAH, big boy - stop worrying about Link's next accident, they are finnished and over now. No more will happen.
Or are you from one of the opposition airlines or LCC praying to take their customers. Get over yourself, suggest start praying for your own ar$e - you never know when you will need the blessing!
DAH, big boy - stop worrying about Link's next accident, they are finnished and over now. No more will happen.
Or are you from one of the opposition airlines or LCC praying to take their customers. Get over yourself, suggest start praying for your own ar$e - you never know when you will need the blessing!
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I have no doubt that CAA will ask the usual questions such as what is done during training etc. instead of asking the questions that really should be asked like drawing records on the stability of rosters, flight returns, snag history, quality of leadership and ability & knowledge of management etc.
Moral is a major issue at Airlink. The negativity amongst crew, engineers and ops personel is palpable. Unfortunately CAA will no doubt avoid speaking to crew etc. as it is just to much work and the holidays are coming...
Moral is a major issue at Airlink. The negativity amongst crew, engineers and ops personel is palpable. Unfortunately CAA will no doubt avoid speaking to crew etc. as it is just to much work and the holidays are coming...
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Dept of Transport / CAA
I am just wondering how things might have changed over the years... is it still the same that ALL accidents and serious incidents are investigated by the department of transport; accident and incident department, not the CAA?
How does things work there now? Does the CAA need a nudge from the department of transport before they can get involved?
How does things work there now? Does the CAA need a nudge from the department of transport before they can get involved?
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I have the utmost respect for Scully and his flying abilities - is there another pilot in this country who has flown as many types as expertly as he has? But does this make him a safety auditor? Why not appoint a bona fide SA auditing company to do the job or is cost (once again) a factor? GAC is one that comes to mind.
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Now I know we all like tight but I think George is a bit too tight for a 777 or 747
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I agree totally with Selfloader. And someone that has not connections with SAA!!!!
Airlink went through an ISOA audit and received there certification. And I can tell you it’s not easy to pass that one. A SACAA audit is a walk in the park compared to IOSA.
Airlink has gone through a bit of bad luck and I am sure they will come out ok.
Airlink went through an ISOA audit and received there certification. And I can tell you it’s not easy to pass that one. A SACAA audit is a walk in the park compared to IOSA.
Airlink has gone through a bit of bad luck and I am sure they will come out ok.