South African Professional Licensing.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Down the airway.
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
South African Professional Licensing.
Perhaps the links here will be of some use to people in their questions about South African Licences.
Urgent and new notices
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20cent...ed-19Feb08.pdf
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/AIC%27S/30.7.pdf
The best thing to do if one is interested is to fly down here and go to the CAA personally. There is a map on their website that is user frienly I think.
If you want to e mail them the process can be tedious and all paperwork you send here has to be certified.
There does seem to be work here as the eocnomic downturn up north has not got here yet and there will always be some charter work about as distances are so great.
But no one seems very interested in helping sort out work permits which is a differnt thing anyway. For that, here is a link
South African Department of Home Affairs
and
Working in SA: work permits - SouthAfrica.info
There is one guy on Pprune who can add to this licensing I think and I defer to his input if he makes it.
Otherwise, I hope this is of some use. I think that the work permit is the hardest thing to arrange but perhaps it is not 'always' necessary even if it might 'always' be a legal requirement.
I hope this helps some of you......
Urgent and new notices
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20cent...ed-19Feb08.pdf
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/AIC%27S/30.7.pdf
The best thing to do if one is interested is to fly down here and go to the CAA personally. There is a map on their website that is user frienly I think.
If you want to e mail them the process can be tedious and all paperwork you send here has to be certified.
There does seem to be work here as the eocnomic downturn up north has not got here yet and there will always be some charter work about as distances are so great.
But no one seems very interested in helping sort out work permits which is a differnt thing anyway. For that, here is a link
South African Department of Home Affairs
and
Working in SA: work permits - SouthAfrica.info
There is one guy on Pprune who can add to this licensing I think and I defer to his input if he makes it.
Otherwise, I hope this is of some use. I think that the work permit is the hardest thing to arrange but perhaps it is not 'always' necessary even if it might 'always' be a legal requirement.
I hope this helps some of you......
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Where I'm pointing...
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The South African CAA have an online forum where you can post questions and there is someone dedicated to following up for questions/answers.
From what I have seen they are pretty responsive.
In order not to offend I wont post a link, but google "CAA forum avcom" if you want to find it.
As an aside, the South African Weather Service and ATNS also have forums on that site.
From what I have seen they are pretty responsive.
In order not to offend I wont post a link, but google "CAA forum avcom" if you want to find it.
As an aside, the South African Weather Service and ATNS also have forums on that site.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ground school.
There were rumors last summer that the SA regulations for CPL would change. Namely, a 750 hrs ground school would be mandatory.
Does anyone know if these new rules have been implemented ?
Does anyone know if these new rules have been implemented ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Down the airway.
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A quick telephone call and...
If you have passed one of the present Com or ATPL subjects before September 1, 2009, you can carry on with the flow you have started. So you write Human Performance and pass it before that date and you are okay. At now, from September 1 if you have not started the pass pattern, you will have to do the course.
This is not from a CAA source so treat the information with a lidded eye.
If you have passed one of the present Com or ATPL subjects before September 1, 2009, you can carry on with the flow you have started. So you write Human Performance and pass it before that date and you are okay. At now, from September 1 if you have not started the pass pattern, you will have to do the course.
This is not from a CAA source so treat the information with a lidded eye.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London. UK
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CPL/ATPL groundschool
For years the South Africa groundschool for professional flight training has operated an unnecessary two tier system that is well known to all who have endured it together with the repetitions and duplications that are inherent in this flawed and outmoded manner of academic training.
There may be a case for saying that those who wish to operate within an environment that requires just a CPL need only study for that level of knowledge. But many make the mistake of limiting their career path and subsequently pursue further opportunities where an ATPL is a requirement.
So back to groundschool they go if indeed they attend a groundschool at all.
Many are the pilots who have begged, stolen or borrowed a third generation photocopied, dog-eared, tatty set of notes from a fellow pilot friend and locked themselves away whilst they studied the contents therein. This is not the best way to acquire the knowledge base that the modern pilot needs to have in order to operate his coveted aircraft type. And yes I know there are many pilots who have (because of lack of funds or time) gone down the self study route but I wonder if it remains the optimum path now.
The JAA system offers a better model but make no mistake; it is not without its own group of well qualified critics who find it dated and cumbersome in places. However the premise of insisting that aspiring professional pilots attend a formal course of academic training of a specified duration is the right way to go and has already proven itself countless times over. And here I speak of the UK training programme (historically South Africa took its lead from the UK in many respects anyway). High calibre graduates from the UK’s JAA integrated (as well as modular) courses have all attended the ATPL groundschool and by passed the time wasting hoop that CPL and ATPL students in South Africa are still required to jump through.
If you feel that the investment in groundschool is a waste of time then you are welcome to remain in the Stone Age. But I know of countless students from the JAA system who secured their first jets jobs on some serious metal on the strength of having undergone the thorough and extensive groundschool that is a fundamental part of pilot training in the UK. Moreover many UK airlines are insisting that graduate pilots who attend interviews are able to demonstrate an average pass mark of 85% and NO failures, (the odd exam dropped due to illness or other mitigating circumstances is overcome by a comprehensive report from the groundschool together with individual reports from each lecturer).
With a sound track record in the flying training, the newly qualified pilots can and do look forward to flying a B737, A320, ATR 72 etc as their first job and remember these are ladies and gentlemen with little more than 250 hours fresh out of flight school often then getting their command within three to four years and enjoying the remuneration levels that are commensurate with that achievement. Captains on the B737 under the age of 30 are quite a common occurrence.
It is vital that today’s pilots in South Africa now embark on a structured, formal course of academic training that requires a minimum level of attendance. And if this means 750 hours in a class then so be it.
Remember too that within an ATPL are the privileges of the CPL so why doesn’t the South African CAA offer a choice and for those who wish to ‘fast track’ their training without compromising the quality let students study for and write the ATPL exams and be done with it. I’ve taught the groundschool of both syllabi so I speak from experience.
There may be a case for saying that those who wish to operate within an environment that requires just a CPL need only study for that level of knowledge. But many make the mistake of limiting their career path and subsequently pursue further opportunities where an ATPL is a requirement.
So back to groundschool they go if indeed they attend a groundschool at all.
Many are the pilots who have begged, stolen or borrowed a third generation photocopied, dog-eared, tatty set of notes from a fellow pilot friend and locked themselves away whilst they studied the contents therein. This is not the best way to acquire the knowledge base that the modern pilot needs to have in order to operate his coveted aircraft type. And yes I know there are many pilots who have (because of lack of funds or time) gone down the self study route but I wonder if it remains the optimum path now.
The JAA system offers a better model but make no mistake; it is not without its own group of well qualified critics who find it dated and cumbersome in places. However the premise of insisting that aspiring professional pilots attend a formal course of academic training of a specified duration is the right way to go and has already proven itself countless times over. And here I speak of the UK training programme (historically South Africa took its lead from the UK in many respects anyway). High calibre graduates from the UK’s JAA integrated (as well as modular) courses have all attended the ATPL groundschool and by passed the time wasting hoop that CPL and ATPL students in South Africa are still required to jump through.
If you feel that the investment in groundschool is a waste of time then you are welcome to remain in the Stone Age. But I know of countless students from the JAA system who secured their first jets jobs on some serious metal on the strength of having undergone the thorough and extensive groundschool that is a fundamental part of pilot training in the UK. Moreover many UK airlines are insisting that graduate pilots who attend interviews are able to demonstrate an average pass mark of 85% and NO failures, (the odd exam dropped due to illness or other mitigating circumstances is overcome by a comprehensive report from the groundschool together with individual reports from each lecturer).
With a sound track record in the flying training, the newly qualified pilots can and do look forward to flying a B737, A320, ATR 72 etc as their first job and remember these are ladies and gentlemen with little more than 250 hours fresh out of flight school often then getting their command within three to four years and enjoying the remuneration levels that are commensurate with that achievement. Captains on the B737 under the age of 30 are quite a common occurrence.
It is vital that today’s pilots in South Africa now embark on a structured, formal course of academic training that requires a minimum level of attendance. And if this means 750 hours in a class then so be it.
Remember too that within an ATPL are the privileges of the CPL so why doesn’t the South African CAA offer a choice and for those who wish to ‘fast track’ their training without compromising the quality let students study for and write the ATPL exams and be done with it. I’ve taught the groundschool of both syllabi so I speak from experience.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Down the airway.
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SA CAA and JAR route.
I am told that nothing happens on this until September 1 - if even at that time. So only can siggest you keep up to date with CAA website whcih is a pretty good one I think.
I am told that nothing happens on this until September 1 - if even at that time. So only can siggest you keep up to date with CAA website whcih is a pretty good one I think.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bucket, I couldn't agree with you more.
Having done both the JAR and the SA licences, they are incomparable in the level of knowledge, attitudes and outcomes the students end up with. It is hard even to compare the two systems at all, even though one is supposed to mirror the other. The SA system has a long long way to go before it catches up to JAR, one way of helping will be to have the mandatory groundschool, although this will end up cutting down the number of new pilots I think as the cost will rise. When I did the JAR I spent 9 months in full time college at a cost of something like 6000 pounds, and when I did the SA I spent a couple weeks or so reading someones notes at a cost of nothing.
Having done both the JAR and the SA licences, they are incomparable in the level of knowledge, attitudes and outcomes the students end up with. It is hard even to compare the two systems at all, even though one is supposed to mirror the other. The SA system has a long long way to go before it catches up to JAR, one way of helping will be to have the mandatory groundschool, although this will end up cutting down the number of new pilots I think as the cost will rise. When I did the JAR I spent 9 months in full time college at a cost of something like 6000 pounds, and when I did the SA I spent a couple weeks or so reading someones notes at a cost of nothing.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: somewhere in the dark
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This discussion is pointless...SA comm and european ATPL are two completely different things.But it all depends on the student's desire to study.Unfortunately,for most of the people,wether in South Africa or Europe, groundschool comes up just to memorizing question bank (I know people from europe who passed their exams exactly the same way) without even trying to understand the concepts.I feel very sorry for you,Organ Donor,if your preparation for SA com exams consisted of looking through somebody's notes,that means you were not interested in gaining knowledge at all,that probably was just a simple fomality for you,because mine took 6 months of self study 8 hours every day,followed by a first time pass of all 8 subjects in the first sitting.I found out that those people who blame the system and not themselves are just extremely lazy and are not ready to do anything using their own hands and brain,they want everything to be done for them...
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London. UK
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Folks, the emphasis here cannot be a direct comparison between the JAA and the SA systems per se since no valid comparisons can be made. They are not even parallel in their depth of content not time line of study.
I was attempting to hold up what I believe to be a better (JAA) model to which the South Africa CAA should look at and take note of since it has been fine tuned and well developed over the course of many years. The SA acedemic system does not appear to have enjoyed the same progress.
A clear distinction must also be made when looking at pilots transiting from one license system to another by converting a licence. Those from either camp will naturally benefit from prior knowledge since there is always a commonality in the basics; look afresh at my opening paragraph then consider the following.
The JAA route as undertaken for the intergrated course in the UK (for example) takes pre-selected multi-cultural, multi-ethnic entrants of a very high calibre and sets them on a path where the fulfilment of the training syllabus ultimately produces graduate pilots whose knowledge base is far in excess of anything that the SA system presently generates. Whats more, the process completely by passes the CPL (its not even a consideration) and goes straight to the ATPL level.
In one example that I can think of the students do not see the inside of an aircraft until ALL the ATPL exams are passed. Only once the student has proven him or herself acedemically is the college then happy to embark on the costly flight training.
Doesn't this make sense too??
Would not a great amount of South African tax payers money be saved if this line of thinking was adopted by SAA for the cadet scheme?
Clearly those pilots who already hold a licence will benefit from prior knowledge even if it means blowing out few cobwebs.
And finally and perhaps most importantly the industry benefits; knowledgable, presentable, keen and highly motivated newly qualified pilots ready for type training and employment with flag carriers and other high profile airlines.
Ask yourself this, are you aware of ANY South African airline who routinely hires 250hr graduate pilots fresh out of flight training school with no previous experience to fly a shiny turbo-prop/jet of X tonnes with fare paying passengers on board.
Everything is in place in South Africa to effect the simple change required. You need only to look at events across the Atlantic to see what can be done. Just do it...
I was attempting to hold up what I believe to be a better (JAA) model to which the South Africa CAA should look at and take note of since it has been fine tuned and well developed over the course of many years. The SA acedemic system does not appear to have enjoyed the same progress.
A clear distinction must also be made when looking at pilots transiting from one license system to another by converting a licence. Those from either camp will naturally benefit from prior knowledge since there is always a commonality in the basics; look afresh at my opening paragraph then consider the following.
The JAA route as undertaken for the intergrated course in the UK (for example) takes pre-selected multi-cultural, multi-ethnic entrants of a very high calibre and sets them on a path where the fulfilment of the training syllabus ultimately produces graduate pilots whose knowledge base is far in excess of anything that the SA system presently generates. Whats more, the process completely by passes the CPL (its not even a consideration) and goes straight to the ATPL level.
In one example that I can think of the students do not see the inside of an aircraft until ALL the ATPL exams are passed. Only once the student has proven him or herself acedemically is the college then happy to embark on the costly flight training.
Doesn't this make sense too??
Would not a great amount of South African tax payers money be saved if this line of thinking was adopted by SAA for the cadet scheme?
Clearly those pilots who already hold a licence will benefit from prior knowledge even if it means blowing out few cobwebs.
And finally and perhaps most importantly the industry benefits; knowledgable, presentable, keen and highly motivated newly qualified pilots ready for type training and employment with flag carriers and other high profile airlines.
Ask yourself this, are you aware of ANY South African airline who routinely hires 250hr graduate pilots fresh out of flight training school with no previous experience to fly a shiny turbo-prop/jet of X tonnes with fare paying passengers on board.
Everything is in place in South Africa to effect the simple change required. You need only to look at events across the Atlantic to see what can be done. Just do it...
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: here&there
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You make some very valid points, however, just because someone is great academically does not mean that they have the ability to control an aircraft. At my present company, the cadets all performed admirably in the academic dept, but when it comes to the flying stage, I believe the standards are, well, lets not go there shall we......
Some guys/ladies I know are excellent hands-on pilots, and find it difficult to get all that academic knowledge "in" their heads, and experience out in the field (as fo's)enables them to understand it all better and become better pilots over time. Not getting through the first hurdle, academically, doesn't mean they wont become great pilots.
Having said all that, I would not like to be on the interview panel trying to figure out who looks like they will be a great pilot from reading through Matric pass results and little Timmy saying he is the most enthusiastic learner, willing to do "anything" for the cadetship. That's why we have such great people in the HR dept, hey?
Some guys/ladies I know are excellent hands-on pilots, and find it difficult to get all that academic knowledge "in" their heads, and experience out in the field (as fo's)enables them to understand it all better and become better pilots over time. Not getting through the first hurdle, academically, doesn't mean they wont become great pilots.
Having said all that, I would not like to be on the interview panel trying to figure out who looks like they will be a great pilot from reading through Matric pass results and little Timmy saying he is the most enthusiastic learner, willing to do "anything" for the cadetship. That's why we have such great people in the HR dept, hey?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London. UK
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
s2h
I agree with you (in part at least!). Your underlying point is correct; high acedemic ability does not translate into natural piloting skills and this is where the pre-training selection process can be tailor made to seek out those candidates who show those qualities and characterics in aptitude tests.
It is not clear where you're writing from but I sense an understandable frustraion in your comments about the standards of the F/O's your company employs. Am I assuming correctly that this is occuring outside of the UK?
I agree with you (in part at least!). Your underlying point is correct; high acedemic ability does not translate into natural piloting skills and this is where the pre-training selection process can be tailor made to seek out those candidates who show those qualities and characterics in aptitude tests.
It is not clear where you're writing from but I sense an understandable frustraion in your comments about the standards of the F/O's your company employs. Am I assuming correctly that this is occuring outside of the UK?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: somewhere in the dark
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must agree with s2h,good theoretical knowledge doesn't qualify you as a good pilot ( I met people who had 2 college degrees and got their PPL in 80 hrs of dual instruction,simply because their hands grow from their arses,these people should not even stand near the aircraft because it already presents danger for everyone around) . SA fresh CPL gives you the possibility to instruct or do bush flying,no other options and when you build those valuable hours you get the valuable knowledge which cannot be compared by any means to raw JAA ATP books.JAR ATPL system produces F/O for boeings and airbuses who learn in the cockpit after getting employed with a very distant idea about flying in general...And,yes,Bucket, there are a lot of people in SA who get employed as F/O on multi turbo-props and small jets directly with 250 hrs in their logbooks,those people are cadets...And guess what,they are flying safely
,noone gets hurt.
,noone gets hurt.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London. UK
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The cadet output from flying training colleges in SA represents a fraction of the total graduate CPL/frozen ATPL output. The JAA system is indeed designed to train airline pilots who are airline ready. By definition they will not have any experience. It remains the case that the vast majority of the output from the UK's air training colleges are not cadets (since the cadet system as we know it no longer exists in any significance; ie paid for training), yet they do get good jobs. Ask the colleges for their stats and they will be happy to oblige.
Leaving aside the small cadet percentage of graduates, the SA system has provided that market with a different final product altogether that has nevertheless served the demands and requirements of African aviation well. These pilots as we well know normally pass through the instructing and/or contract route and come to the airline environment with valid experience. There remains some debate as to weather newly minted CPL's should almost be forced to resort to instruction to accrue the hours before even getting a chance to fly on contract. Most leave instruction with a handsome amount of single and twin instruction time yet in many cases the best they can hope for is RHS on a 'Van, a 200 or a 1900. It would be hard to state that the majority of the CPL graduates from say 43 Air School get a job straight onto a 200 for example nevertheless I am happy to be corrected.
But does one need to aquire that sort of experience in order to become an airline pilot? Perhaps not, though I will agree completely that it certainly makes for a more rounded and interesting individual and certainly someone who'll bring some colour, interest and amusing stories into the flightdeck.
As South Africa seeks to progress into 1st world status and embrace many of the legitimate training and hiring practices of its competitors in the 1st world I wonder if it is able to free itself from some of its outdated thinking and attitudes that are present under the current structure.
South Africa has a real opportunity to lead the rest of the continent and evolve itself into a much needed role model for Africa. Alas, its flag carrier is already subject to close scrutinty and it is only a matter of time before attentions turn to those at the pointy end. It really does not need that.
Leaving aside the small cadet percentage of graduates, the SA system has provided that market with a different final product altogether that has nevertheless served the demands and requirements of African aviation well. These pilots as we well know normally pass through the instructing and/or contract route and come to the airline environment with valid experience. There remains some debate as to weather newly minted CPL's should almost be forced to resort to instruction to accrue the hours before even getting a chance to fly on contract. Most leave instruction with a handsome amount of single and twin instruction time yet in many cases the best they can hope for is RHS on a 'Van, a 200 or a 1900. It would be hard to state that the majority of the CPL graduates from say 43 Air School get a job straight onto a 200 for example nevertheless I am happy to be corrected.
But does one need to aquire that sort of experience in order to become an airline pilot? Perhaps not, though I will agree completely that it certainly makes for a more rounded and interesting individual and certainly someone who'll bring some colour, interest and amusing stories into the flightdeck.
As South Africa seeks to progress into 1st world status and embrace many of the legitimate training and hiring practices of its competitors in the 1st world I wonder if it is able to free itself from some of its outdated thinking and attitudes that are present under the current structure.
South Africa has a real opportunity to lead the rest of the continent and evolve itself into a much needed role model for Africa. Alas, its flag carrier is already subject to close scrutinty and it is only a matter of time before attentions turn to those at the pointy end. It really does not need that.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: somewhere in the dark
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see your point,Bucket.I agree that JAA syllabus probably covers more than any other in the world, which is not bad , there cannot be any extra knowledge , every single detail is extremely important , but an attempt to implement it in SA,which is planned to be done in September 2009 , will probably end up in a failure.Why?The answer is very simple.When have you last visited SA?If you look around , you will realize that SA is currently short of qualified instructors ( by qualified instructors I mean people who can still teach you something,regardless of how many thousands hours the've logged) , ground school is mostly self-study type and I just can't see how this transition is possible in such a short period of time.This system has worked here for many years and I was very lucky to be a part of it,had a very nice time and gained important experience.I am not going to stay here any longer,going back to where I belong - europe and will convert my SA CPL to JAA fATPL as many people did before.But that's just the way things should be - there cannot be a unique system which would work in the whole world , it follows different needs and requirements of different countries and continents.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SA CPL Conversion to EASA Part-FCL fATPL
This question may have been answered in another post, but nonetheless, i've been looking on the UK CAA website on the process required to convert the above 'SA CPL to an EASA Part-FCL fATPL'. Its quite clear on SA CAA on converting a JAA CPL/IR or from whichever ICAO state your license was granted, on their website through their 'Foreing License Validation' process. Anyone know, am currently deciding on whether to continue my pilot training in the UK or SA, as I currently hold an EASA Part-FCL PPL (A)
