B1900 missing in the congo?
Having flown for ten years in africa including bukavu and recently in a b747. All i can say is that nothing changes. Still no navaids outside the capital,very poor coms,outside of capital wx reporting just guesswork. Notams etc useless. I treat overflying africa like overflying oceans. If anythig happens you are one your own, night time each country has only I lighted runway if it has power. The dark continent indeed. Fly safe.
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JJepps
Mungo,
A great summary of the bush pilot's operating environment and situation.
However, don't kid yourself. We all used Jungle Jepps. Does not matter how reputable your company is or was, up to date charts were simply not available. The job had to be done and that was that.
However, there always came a time to say no, and one had to resect that.
I flew many hours in Zaire/.DRC and fortunately, got away witrh it.
My sincerest condolences to all concerned.
Sir O
A great summary of the bush pilot's operating environment and situation.
However, don't kid yourself. We all used Jungle Jepps. Does not matter how reputable your company is or was, up to date charts were simply not available. The job had to be done and that was that.
However, there always came a time to say no, and one had to resect that.
I flew many hours in Zaire/.DRC and fortunately, got away witrh it.
My sincerest condolences to all concerned.
Sir O
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A very good post Mungo and there has also been some very informative posts as well.
As I understand the law a SA Part 121 operator has to have a wet lease agreement approved by the SACAA. ASI, as stated earlier, operates in accordance with FAA Part 91.
I doubt whether any SACAA inspector will allow Operational Control to be transferred to a Part 91 operator; the requirements are light years apart.
Operational Control cannot be transferred.
If the SA Investigators are allowed to investigate this accident then I am sure they will dig deep into the paper work............
I am truly sorry for those out there who have suffered a loss.
As I understand the law a SA Part 121 operator has to have a wet lease agreement approved by the SACAA. ASI, as stated earlier, operates in accordance with FAA Part 91.
I doubt whether any SACAA inspector will allow Operational Control to be transferred to a Part 91 operator; the requirements are light years apart.
Operational Control cannot be transferred.
If the SA Investigators are allowed to investigate this accident then I am sure they will dig deep into the paper work............
I am truly sorry for those out there who have suffered a loss.
If the SA Investigators are allowed to investigate this accident then I am sure they will dig deep into the paper work...
The regulatory agencies (American FAA, SA CAA) are not directly involved in accident investigation, that is not part of the madate of a regulatory agency. They may become involved sooner or later (pre or post issue of the accident report) depending on the findings made by the TSB team that carries out the accident investigation.
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In South Africa, the Minister of Transport appoints the Commisioner of Civil Aviation who has oversight / responsibility for the Civil Aviation Authority and (independently) the Accident Investigation Department.
I have been to Goma recently and am familiar with the flying conditions.
I am sick and tired of pilots and passengers losing their lives. Lets get to the bottom of this. There is nothing wrong with the South African Civil Aviation's abilty to enforce and maintain standards. Neither is there with the FAA.
Let us stop hiding behind the countries in Africa.
Please, let us all work together towards changing the safety culture in Africa.
I have been to Goma recently and am familiar with the flying conditions.
I am sick and tired of pilots and passengers losing their lives. Lets get to the bottom of this. There is nothing wrong with the South African Civil Aviation's abilty to enforce and maintain standards. Neither is there with the FAA.
Let us stop hiding behind the countries in Africa.
Please, let us all work together towards changing the safety culture in Africa.
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Whenwe I don't disagree with you at all mate. However in this case I knew the captain and he was very safety conscious....honestly don't even want to guess what happened here but he was no cowboy.
Whilst agreeing about safety culture you do have to bend to the realities of the situation, it's not hiding. There's little by the way of professional ATC, almost no radar, even if you have TCAS2 there's many a/c flying not even transponder equipped piloted by non English speakers, little reliable weather information, working nav aids etc... Seriously it's hard to plan a VFR flight that comes even close to the standards of a Western country let alone IFR. For a VFR flight in Canada for example I'd be able to pull up TAF's Metar's etc for my destination to check the validity of my VFR flight. I'd be able to call up ATC for updates. To give you an example: Blantyre and Lilongwe in Malawi don't even have phone lines to call each other..I used to relay messages between them! And Malawi is pretty civilized compared to many of these countries.
The safety culture can always be improved and we should strive to learn the lessons rather than working out who to blame but in the end until some drastic changes take place on this continent it will always claim may more lives than countries with better infrastructure. IMHO.
Whilst agreeing about safety culture you do have to bend to the realities of the situation, it's not hiding. There's little by the way of professional ATC, almost no radar, even if you have TCAS2 there's many a/c flying not even transponder equipped piloted by non English speakers, little reliable weather information, working nav aids etc... Seriously it's hard to plan a VFR flight that comes even close to the standards of a Western country let alone IFR. For a VFR flight in Canada for example I'd be able to pull up TAF's Metar's etc for my destination to check the validity of my VFR flight. I'd be able to call up ATC for updates. To give you an example: Blantyre and Lilongwe in Malawi don't even have phone lines to call each other..I used to relay messages between them! And Malawi is pretty civilized compared to many of these countries.
The safety culture can always be improved and we should strive to learn the lessons rather than working out who to blame but in the end until some drastic changes take place on this continent it will always claim may more lives than countries with better infrastructure. IMHO.
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Pitch and Fan ..... Mate you got the point... for those flying the GNSS approach into Bukuva .... make sure you have the training, the equipment, Raim prior to the approach. Make sure there are no oustanding MEL's..
Otherwise be prepared to face a barrage of questions from a team of lawyers .... and then be prepared to loose all you have worked for.
Sure hope AirServ have all the ducks in a row, the engineers have done there work properly and have there paperwork ready. The CVR and FDR reveal what really happened. The investigators reports get published.
Thanks guys for the Jepp Approach into Bukavu. For those of you who have flown into Bukavu you will know there is no margin for error
Otherwise be prepared to face a barrage of questions from a team of lawyers .... and then be prepared to loose all you have worked for.
Sure hope AirServ have all the ducks in a row, the engineers have done there work properly and have there paperwork ready. The CVR and FDR reveal what really happened. The investigators reports get published.
Thanks guys for the Jepp Approach into Bukavu. For those of you who have flown into Bukavu you will know there is no margin for error
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MungoP,
Your posting earlier about the bush flying environment, and those who operate in it is very good, and sums the situation up correctly. Bush pilots are doing highly specialised work, and as you obviously know... an in-depth, intimate knowledge of one's operating area is vital under extreme bush-ops conditions. I know, having been there myself.
That said, it still does not mean that the operators can end up being self-regulating. Unfortunately, the CAA is reasonably / relatively unable to get out to these type of places with any kind of regularity, and so the senior pilot in any such operation will usually end up taking the brunt of the responsibility for safety and regulatory compliance.
Now... Given the real-life requirements of these kind of operations... Out-of-reg', or out-of-limits, becomes fairly normal. Balanced field operations, fully PANS-OPS compliant IFR procedures, W&B, and a host of other factors get interpreted somewhat loosely. All these compromises to established regulations, will, besides taking one closer to the edge of the safety envelope, place one in a legally precarious situation if the doo hits the fan.
What then is the solution...In a real world environment? And in response to that self posed question / challenge, I can only say that it is practically impossible for a pilot to remain legally compliant in the face of such a reality. He, or she must therefore manage the risks as best possible. There will however, be accidents, and the consequences of any rule-breaking can, and will most likely, become a heavy burden to carry.
To all you guys and girls out there who are "making it work" on a daily basis... You are doing great work. What you MUST do however, is try to keep safety at the top of your priority list. Safety based actions / decisions may legally over-ride regulations under certain conditions. But to break the rules as a matter of daily habit is not what anyone should be doing.
I'm not however, implying that this particular B1900 crew were in any way outside of the law. This just seems to be a good place to discuss this difficult subject.
Strength to all the family and friends of the two fellows who went down at Bukavo. They called on their best judgement and skill that fateful day, and the fact that they were in the situation may well have due to an ill-advised instruction from their bosses. Jeppesen updates, comprehensive training, and an SOP compliant operational culture, and Nav database updates cost a lot, and cut into profits.
Maybe the correct culture regarding adherence to air-law, safety policies and legal compliance to technical status should begin at the ab-initio stage where we all get to fly unserviceable aircraft...Just to get the job done. At what stage does this lesson, or example get replaced with something better?
He who fails to learn from, and apply the lessons of history and hard-won experience, is bound to repeat those mistakes... possibly with less fortunate outcomes.
LET's LEARN SOMETHING FROM THIS!
Your posting earlier about the bush flying environment, and those who operate in it is very good, and sums the situation up correctly. Bush pilots are doing highly specialised work, and as you obviously know... an in-depth, intimate knowledge of one's operating area is vital under extreme bush-ops conditions. I know, having been there myself.
That said, it still does not mean that the operators can end up being self-regulating. Unfortunately, the CAA is reasonably / relatively unable to get out to these type of places with any kind of regularity, and so the senior pilot in any such operation will usually end up taking the brunt of the responsibility for safety and regulatory compliance.
Now... Given the real-life requirements of these kind of operations... Out-of-reg', or out-of-limits, becomes fairly normal. Balanced field operations, fully PANS-OPS compliant IFR procedures, W&B, and a host of other factors get interpreted somewhat loosely. All these compromises to established regulations, will, besides taking one closer to the edge of the safety envelope, place one in a legally precarious situation if the doo hits the fan.
What then is the solution...In a real world environment? And in response to that self posed question / challenge, I can only say that it is practically impossible for a pilot to remain legally compliant in the face of such a reality. He, or she must therefore manage the risks as best possible. There will however, be accidents, and the consequences of any rule-breaking can, and will most likely, become a heavy burden to carry.
To all you guys and girls out there who are "making it work" on a daily basis... You are doing great work. What you MUST do however, is try to keep safety at the top of your priority list. Safety based actions / decisions may legally over-ride regulations under certain conditions. But to break the rules as a matter of daily habit is not what anyone should be doing.
I'm not however, implying that this particular B1900 crew were in any way outside of the law. This just seems to be a good place to discuss this difficult subject.
Strength to all the family and friends of the two fellows who went down at Bukavo. They called on their best judgement and skill that fateful day, and the fact that they were in the situation may well have due to an ill-advised instruction from their bosses. Jeppesen updates, comprehensive training, and an SOP compliant operational culture, and Nav database updates cost a lot, and cut into profits.
Maybe the correct culture regarding adherence to air-law, safety policies and legal compliance to technical status should begin at the ab-initio stage where we all get to fly unserviceable aircraft...Just to get the job done. At what stage does this lesson, or example get replaced with something better?
He who fails to learn from, and apply the lessons of history and hard-won experience, is bound to repeat those mistakes... possibly with less fortunate outcomes.
LET's LEARN SOMETHING FROM THIS!
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1900 down in DRC
As parents of a 25 year old who had to build hours in Africa and also flew into Bukavu and various other airfields in DRC we would like to offer our sincere condolences and sympathy to the parents and families of the crew.
We knew our son was doing what he loved most but it was really hard being back at home knowing a little bit of what flying conditions are like in this part of the world.
Unfortunately it seems to be the only way to build hours and as he is now flying for an airline out of HK we are very grateful but also empathise with the parents and grieve with them.
Your son was doing what he loved - how many others waste their whole life following a career which they actually hate?
We knew our son was doing what he loved most but it was really hard being back at home knowing a little bit of what flying conditions are like in this part of the world.
Unfortunately it seems to be the only way to build hours and as he is now flying for an airline out of HK we are very grateful but also empathise with the parents and grieve with them.
Your son was doing what he loved - how many others waste their whole life following a career which they actually hate?
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Beech 1900 DRC
Having flown A/C based in Bukavu for the last 2 years I can attest to the abysmal ATC and weather services. It is a confusing situation at the least. The A/P is operated by the UN/RVA. The UN supplies a tower and it is manned by a DRC controller with very little training and no access to weather reports other than what he is handed by the UN weather reporter/observer. Weather is available to MONUC crews from Air Ops , why it is not public I don't know, it isn't always great but it is better than nothing. There are also 2 STAR arrivals available on ICAO produced RVA charts. They are not updated on the 28/56 day schedule but can be obtained from operators who are using them now. They are up to date enough that the A/P diagram shows position of old NDB tower along with coord's of its former location.
The current Jepp FMS data base does not include the listed GNSS approach , the waypoints exist but the missed APP waypoints do not. This makes it both dangerous and most likely illegal to fly. ( Also your in enroute mode not approach as mentioned)
There is a JJ let down developed by an operator of medium A/C available and it starts over the lake at an altitude above the MSA/MORA.
Why as fellow operators / pilots don't we share this information with crews. Just because the registration isn't from the same country doesn't mean we shouldn't work together to help prevent these unfortunate accidents.
The current Jepp FMS data base does not include the listed GNSS approach , the waypoints exist but the missed APP waypoints do not. This makes it both dangerous and most likely illegal to fly. ( Also your in enroute mode not approach as mentioned)
There is a JJ let down developed by an operator of medium A/C available and it starts over the lake at an altitude above the MSA/MORA.
Why as fellow operators / pilots don't we share this information with crews. Just because the registration isn't from the same country doesn't mean we shouldn't work together to help prevent these unfortunate accidents.
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1900 Loss at Bukavu
To everyone out there-Africa in general is deficient with regards nav aids and the use of airborne equipment is trying to correct this deficiency.
However, notwithstanding the influence of weather, atrocious ATC, mountainous terrain and the ever present attitude of "Do it or we will get someone else to do it " and I include the UN in this we will never stop this carnage.
I appeal to all flight deck crew-Say THUS FAR AND NO FURTHER.
Honour the MSA and the Grid Mora and do not descend below unless on radar vectors or on an approved instrument approach.
If you cannot comply-divert to your alternate or do not accept the flight.
If anyone pressurises you to accept the flight PM me and I will take it further-we cannot accept the loss of lives and the reputation of SA pilots.
To all that are trying to do everything safely-well done and keep it up.
To those that have been affected by this tragedy-believe me, they were doing the best that they coud under the circumstances-no one coud ask more.
My sincerest condolences to you all-it shoud not be like this.
Arend III.
However, notwithstanding the influence of weather, atrocious ATC, mountainous terrain and the ever present attitude of "Do it or we will get someone else to do it " and I include the UN in this we will never stop this carnage.
I appeal to all flight deck crew-Say THUS FAR AND NO FURTHER.
Honour the MSA and the Grid Mora and do not descend below unless on radar vectors or on an approved instrument approach.
If you cannot comply-divert to your alternate or do not accept the flight.
If anyone pressurises you to accept the flight PM me and I will take it further-we cannot accept the loss of lives and the reputation of SA pilots.
To all that are trying to do everything safely-well done and keep it up.
To those that have been affected by this tragedy-believe me, they were doing the best that they coud under the circumstances-no one coud ask more.
My sincerest condolences to you all-it shoud not be like this.
Arend III.
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1900 down in DRC
Too true.
Let's wait for the accident investigation before we jump to conclusions, yes we woud all like to learn the lessons, but it is far too early.
What you said was so relevant-I knew a civil engineer who made 10X my salary but hated his work whereas I coud not wait to get up in the morning to go to the flying club.
I have to say that some of the "Magic" has rubbed off, mainly due to non aviation orientated management, but I woud never say that I made a mistake-nor woud I change anything.
Arend III.
Let's wait for the accident investigation before we jump to conclusions, yes we woud all like to learn the lessons, but it is far too early.
What you said was so relevant-I knew a civil engineer who made 10X my salary but hated his work whereas I coud not wait to get up in the morning to go to the flying club.
I have to say that some of the "Magic" has rubbed off, mainly due to non aviation orientated management, but I woud never say that I made a mistake-nor woud I change anything.
Arend III.
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man oh man...
just what happened here..?
descent below MSA or what? GPS approach in kak weather...?
been there done that...can only say to the friends out there..
Africa.... well not yre friend when you need met TAFS or METARS..
Its very difficult to make the call and I for one will never be presured by some **** employed by the UN telling me what to do and where to go.
These twits will continue to drive their 4x4"s and live in luxury at the expense of the same people they should be helping.
my sincere condolences to Rudi his family and friends..
and for my part i dont know the captain or his pax..this must not happen again...i implore all you contract boys out there....be careful...very careful...
sincere to all the families...
descent below MSA or what? GPS approach in kak weather...?
been there done that...can only say to the friends out there..
Africa.... well not yre friend when you need met TAFS or METARS..
Its very difficult to make the call and I for one will never be presured by some **** employed by the UN telling me what to do and where to go.
These twits will continue to drive their 4x4"s and live in luxury at the expense of the same people they should be helping.
my sincere condolences to Rudi his family and friends..
and for my part i dont know the captain or his pax..this must not happen again...i implore all you contract boys out there....be careful...very careful...
sincere to all the families...
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My 5c worth,
Having done flown these contracts and ending up managing them (with my own aircraft on contract), there should be be no unnecessary pressure on crews to bust a MSA without the ground being visual. Go around and come back later. The owner and/or operator will be paid for that flight (and the next flight when the task is completed) and the 'hour builders' will get the time. Only the Air Ops guys get frustrated but that the guys normally sort out over a beer or 2 later.
Not really worth dieing for.
I didn't know the crew but my thoughts are with their families.
Having done flown these contracts and ending up managing them (with my own aircraft on contract), there should be be no unnecessary pressure on crews to bust a MSA without the ground being visual. Go around and come back later. The owner and/or operator will be paid for that flight (and the next flight when the task is completed) and the 'hour builders' will get the time. Only the Air Ops guys get frustrated but that the guys normally sort out over a beer or 2 later.
Not really worth dieing for.
I didn't know the crew but my thoughts are with their families.
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Let's take a step back here....
Nobody can know if the crew intentionally descended below the MSA... We've all entered regions of convective activity and discovered it to be worse (much worse) than anticipated.... Downdrafts of 3000 fpm are not uncommon and the alternate wx may look even worse than the wx we're flying in to...
Nobody can know if the crew intentionally descended below the MSA... We've all entered regions of convective activity and discovered it to be worse (much worse) than anticipated.... Downdrafts of 3000 fpm are not uncommon and the alternate wx may look even worse than the wx we're flying in to...
Earlier in this discussion, the question of SA CAA approval to carry out RNP approaches came up. One participant said that ZA crews could not utilize such approaches without the express permission of the SA CAA. That struck me as being a bit odd, because in other countries (Europe, Canada) crew can fly published RNP approaches as long as the aircraft has the appropriate equipment installed and the crew are appropriately qualified (instrument rating) to fly the approach.
I did find a document published by the SA CAA that provides some clarification, that document is here: OPERATOR AIRCREW AND AIRCRAFT APPROVAL FOR REQUIRED NAVIGATION PERFORMANCE CA AOC-AC-FO-012.
As is so often the case in aviation worldwide, a distinction is made between 'operators' and 'pilots'. In this case, the document applies to SA 121 and 135 operators, not globally to all South African pilots. But, I don't think any of us yet know what operating certificate was applicable to this flight - was it AirServ's Part 91 American certificate, Cem Air's certificate (if they have one), Star Air Cargo's certificate, or no certificate at all?
A prerequisite for anyone - pilot or operator - to carry out RNP approaches is that the aircraft must be equipped with avionics that provide the required RNP precision for the approach. It's not sufficient that the avionics box itself meet the TSO specification, it also has to be installed in accordance with the TSO requirements, and the navigation database in it must be kept up to date.
I did find a document published by the SA CAA that provides some clarification, that document is here: OPERATOR AIRCREW AND AIRCRAFT APPROVAL FOR REQUIRED NAVIGATION PERFORMANCE CA AOC-AC-FO-012.
As is so often the case in aviation worldwide, a distinction is made between 'operators' and 'pilots'. In this case, the document applies to SA 121 and 135 operators, not globally to all South African pilots. But, I don't think any of us yet know what operating certificate was applicable to this flight - was it AirServ's Part 91 American certificate, Cem Air's certificate (if they have one), Star Air Cargo's certificate, or no certificate at all?
A prerequisite for anyone - pilot or operator - to carry out RNP approaches is that the aircraft must be equipped with avionics that provide the required RNP precision for the approach. It's not sufficient that the avionics box itself meet the TSO specification, it also has to be installed in accordance with the TSO requirements, and the navigation database in it must be kept up to date.
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As an engineer who has worked the contract life for 5 years and that included DRC I just want to say that we all know that what we do is a dangerous job and the conditions we work in are sometimes not the best to say the least but that is the job we chose to do.We all have lost friends doing this job and my thoughts and prayers go out to all affected by this tradgedy. I just want to say lets just do our best amongst our selves as crew to not become a stat,please guys fly safe and come home to your love ones R.I.P