B1900 missing in the congo?

[Propellerpilot]

Those of you blaming the person running the company in Joburg are doing so unjustly and it is totally disappropriate at this time. He might of had his share in the past, however this does not automatically mean anything to what happened now - he has absolutly no control for an aeroplane flying into terrain - he did not force them to fly and he trusts crew to make their own deceisions as that is what they are getting paid for.

This crew was by no means incompetant, especially the skipper would take no crp from anyone - not even his boss. He was respected greatly by everyone in the company and was most probably the most senior captain of all.

Something terrible has happened here, nobody knows why or what had happened so stop writing such far fetched bullsh This did not happen because the crew did not have Jeppcharts etc. or was not equipped with essentials or experience. Until we do not know what or who is to blame, we should not accuse anyone in public until proven guilty.

[Gooneybird]

Propellerpilot The skippers family has not been informed as of yet - so it should not be published here until this has been done. Please respect this.

I'm sure this will be respected.

The skipper was a friend of mine and I was only asking about him the other day. Rest well in heaven.

[popobawa]

B-1900 crash DRC

Unfortunately some operators send crews with little or no experience of flying in DRC.
The eastern part of the DRC is a very tricky to fly ,no only because of terrain but nasty weather and poor ATC.

I personaly think that sending inexperienced pilots there is just no the right thing to do.
Many experience pilots flying in DRC still respect the weather and the terrain .

If you are a young pilot with little experience Congo is NOT the place where you wan't to built experience; my personal point of view of course.

fly safe

[Gooneybird]

The skipper was neither young nor inexperienced and whilst agreeing with the gist of your post in general it's not relevant here.

I agree with Propellerpilot. No one knows what happened and frankly we may never really know. No point slinging mud. When I say slinging mud I'm refering to posts regarding the operator, not the previous post.

[south coast]

Rags said, 'In bad weather a CFIT in that area is a good possibility. There is no approach into Bukavu and no beacons.'

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, CFIT is only a 'good' (I think you mean high) possibility because one decides to go below the MSA, in the abscense of any nav aids or approaches, when the weather is LESS than VMC, and unfortunately therein lies the problem with that part of the world, which was my initial question,

Is there pressure to get the job done, otherwise I am struggling to understand why an experienced and competant crew, as it has been said already, would enter into the gamble of descending below the MSA in bad weather while aware of the terrain below.

I am not trying to aportion blame on to the crew, but something must have influenced them to try to get in, and as it has been written already, I am sure they were aware as everyone who has posted is, just how perrilous the Goma region can be in bad weather.

I disagree with Gooneybird somewhat because as she said there is a good chance the facts will never be known, then it is down to sensible discussion and debate to try and understand what may have caused this so it doesnt happen to others.

[Gooneybird]

The trouble is south coast without reliable information we may never know. It could have been anything from mechanical failure to a culture of using makeshift approaches. It's all guesses and therefore hardly worth the effort of writing.

It's been a long time since I was in that region, is there really no approach? I seem to remember there being one?

[Propellerpilot]

What about a probability, that there was a mountain wave and extreme downdraft from thunderstorm or microburst activity that made them lose a lot of hight in an instant? or maybe the control-surfaces got damaged by extreame turbulence and became uncontrollable. Could that be possible ?

Just a month ago, I had a personal conversation with this very captain himself about exactly this subject because I wanted to learn something - he explained the dangers of this particular region and the problems of flying into Goma in IMC (which is basically next door) in great detail. This man had over a thousand of hours on type and has flown in the region and knew what it takes to fly there. It would surprise me, if they really did go below MSA volountarily, if not clear of terrain. Rudi was just about to upgrade to captain himself and has also had his share of Congo experience before this tragedy struck.

There used to be an GNSS Approach published in the Jepp. 2006 Don't know if it has been withdrawn. However ZS aircraft and crew as far as I know, have to be certified to use thease approaches and GPS is not permitted as a sole reference for navigation.

[setcruisepower]

there's no nav aids out that side. there is a GNSS approach into Bukavu though.

[Bontebok]

GNSS

Yip, there is a GNSS app, with a step decend. They could have been "out-of-step" It happens so darn easily, maybe a bit of complacency. One tend to forget a step decend if you think you know the plate, ive seen it in my own experience. Doing a letdown with a citation in west Africa - reduced visibility, but with the ground and runway insight. I told my FO to stay on the letdown as its good practise. Asked him if he would like to brief me on the plate and he replied with "i know the procedure" He went out of step with me keeping visual contact outside. Obvioulsy there was a reason for the step and I told him to look up - there was a huge hill right infront of him! Great experience and a good lesson. As I said, it happens so bloody easily!

[setcruisepower]

they found the wreckage 8nm NW of Bukavu. I think they might have tried a " home made " approach.

[ONKYO]

The past week has seen 2 plane crashes involving ZS reg planes one at rand airport and now this, everybody died, 20 people gone............................this added to the almost countless number of fatal general aviation accidents that have occurred in the past 12 -24 months.

As pilots there's a small part of us that says we would make a better decision if placed in the situations that lead to all these crashes and hopefully we all will. We all need to start taking our flying more seriously and understand our limitations and that regardless of whatever experience we have there is always going to be situations or combination of events/circumstances that will be above our personal limitations.



My deepest sympathy to all the families

[JTrain]

Would the airplane have had a CVR or FDR?

Thanks,

jt

[Prop Job]

My deepest sympathy to all the family and friends of the passengers and crew. Even though I did not personally know anybody involved, it is always a very sad day to hear of an accident like this one.

To answer JTrain's question, a B190 is equipped with both a CVR and a FDR. I'm just not sure whether anybody will actually analyse them.

Prop Job

[Heli-Jet]

GPS approaches

Can anybody quote of attach a SACAA document that allows ZS registered aircraft to do GPS approaches !!!

Should be interesting to see whether the insurance company will pay Cemair, Hull insurance or any insurance after their investigation.

Does the UN not provide flight crews TAF's and Metars for the destination and alternate wx

[V1... Ooops]

Originally Posted by JTrain

Would the airplane have had a CVR or FDR?

I think that depends entirely on whether the legislation governing the operation of the aircraft mandated either one.

The problem is, what legislation governed the flight, and what regulatory authority provided the oversight? The American FAA, because Air Serv (an American Part 91 operator) sold the tickets and hustled the charters? The South African CAA, in light of fact that the beneficial owner of the aircraft and the company that supplied the crew (Cemair) is South African? The policies and practices of the AOC holder (presumably Star Air Cargo, also of ZA)? The legislation of the DRC, the country where the aircraft was based and and also the point of origin and destination of the flight?

Or... did this entire rather convoluted arrangement manage to fall between the cracks and, as a result, was never supervised by any regulatory authority?

[V1... Ooops]

On page 1 of this thread, reference was made to ZS-OLD. Earlier this year, I observed that the Air Serv / Cemair aircraft operating in the DRC was ZS-OLG.

Does anyone know with certainty what the registration (and MSN) of the aircraft was?

[MungoP]

Does the UN not provide flight crews TAF's and Metars for the destination and alternate wx

This is Africa... T/storms are huge and like all T/storms, are dynamic, are localized and move/ develop and dissipate in short spaces of time... That part of the world (eastern Congo) is probably the most testing I've flown anywhere.... (and that includes the arctic in winter). High ground, vicious weather and little or nothing in the way of support... It's flying country that is very intollerant of mistákes in judgement or a sloppy approach to flying.... and even the best crews ( and these two were probably among the best out there by all acounts) can come to grief doing what they've done many times before and survived.... maybe they got caught in a violent down-draft... maybe they lost control due to getting too close to an abnormally large cell... maybe we'll never know.
It can happen to the best of us... unless we always elect to stay on the ground. whenever conditions are less than ideal... and they're rarely ideal in eastern Congo.

[Contains Nuts]

Devastating news. My thoughts are with the familys of those involved. I do not doubt that they did everything in their power to stay safe in an incredibly difficult environment.

[Heli-Jet]

Crew obviously not professional

1. Found out that UN does provide crews with wx and Bukavu is a UN operated airport. So they would have had a current TAF if they asked for it.
2. There is a high Grid MORA or as some have confused as the MSA, one has to have a published approach to get a MSA
3. ZS aircraft flying outside SA even for other contacting states are still under SA airlaw for operating aircraft. Therefore they cannot do GNSS approaches
4. Aircraft would have to have GPS coupled to HSI and be TSO129C approved
5. Crews would have to have the approved GNSS training if and when the SACAA approves GNSS approaches.
6. The Insurance company will probably not pay out any Insurance
7. The passengers families could sue the companies involved (Air Serv and Cemair) together with the Pilots estates

So for those of you wanting to fly like cowboys in Africa .... you might pay with your life

Aic 40.9

RNAV ARRIVAL AND NON PRECISION APPROACH
TRIALS AND DEMONSTRATIONS

1. This AIC intends to notify the ATM community that ATNS will be commencing with RNAV arrival and NPA trials and demonstrations in accordance with the ICAO planning targets and SARPS.
BACKGROUND
2 The global Air Navigation Plan, Doc 9750, guides the regions in their quest towards full implementation of CNS/ATM Systems. Improvements in navigation have already seen the progressive introduction of RNAV fixed routes as is mentioned in Doc 9750 and implemented in SA AIP ENR 3.3 – 5 paragraph 3.3.6. Further to this the introduction of RNAV arrivals and NPA’s must compliment the fixed RNAV routes.
3. The world-wide CNS/ATM Systems Implementation Conference held in 1998 mandated the regional planning process and implementation of the systems.
4. Doc 9750 stipulates that the AFI region must introduce fixed RNAV ATS routes progressively from 1994 through to 2010. This has been achieved in certain areas. RNAV arrivals for the AFI Region must be progressively introduced from 2003 onwards to 2010. This phase is in planning for trials and demonstrations.
5. AFI Doc 003 from where the National Airspace Masterplan obtains planning targets states that fixed RNAV ATS routes must be progressively introduced from 1999 onwards and that this must be followed by the introduction of GNSS based procedures with GNSS currently being accepted as part of the RNAV equipment for consideration.
6. The South African National Airspace Masterplan encourages the progressive introduction of RNP 1 from the year 2003 onwards.

GENERAL

7. ATNS, in order to complement the fixed RNAV routes, intends to trial and demonstrate RNAV arrival procedures commencing at the exit waypoints established at the end of the fixed RNAV routes. The RNAV arrival procedure will terminate at the beginning of the existing and conventional precision approach, alternatively, under agreed to conditions, will terminate on the planned GNSS NPA.

8. The trials and demonstrations for the RNAV arrival procedures and GNSS NPA’s will be conducted at the following airports:

• FACT – runway 01 only

• FADN – runway 24 only

• FAJS – runway 03R only

9. In order to participate in the above-mentioned trials and demonstrations airline operators will have to comply with the undermentioned minimum aircraft equipment.

• GNSS type receiver compliant with TSO C129-A with automatic turn anticipation and way point sequencing (RAIM monitoring is compulsory).
CONCLUSION
10. Airline operators who comply with the above-mentioned minimum aircraft equipment requirements and which are interested in participating in the trials and demonstrations are invited to register their interest with: - - 2
• General Manager: Air Traffic Management (Planning & Standards) ATNS ISANDO
E-MAIL :
FAX : [phone]
11. ATNS will ensure that participants receive an RNAV arrival procedure operation manual for the trials and demonstrations after entering into a memorandum of understanding between the two parties, which will contain the conditions as approved by the SACAA

[Prop Job]

Why even bother with a crash investigation. It seems Heli-jet has got all the answers. Heli-Jet, were you there? Were you in the cockpit when things started to go South? Obviously not, so I would appreciate it if you don't jump to conclusions so quickly. Obviously what you are explaining is a possibility, but it is only that, A POSSIBILITY. In that part of the world there are a number of other things that could cause this.