To van or not to van that is the question
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To van or not to van that is the question
Hi
I’ve always wanted to do the contract pilot thing, that’s what got me into this whole business, but after sinking a lot of money and time into this venture I still find myself in a dead end desk job still trying to find my first flying job I have enough money for one last trip to Africa . I have 260hrs SA CPL IR Multi and needs shortly to make a decision on one of two plans
Either complete my JAR conversion ( have the ATPL exams , just have to do the flight test ) and get an Instructors rating to work in UK on very little pay and maybe flying very little due to weather.
Or back down to RSA where I have an opportunity to get a C208B rating and around 40-50hrs P1 flying on it
I’d love it to be the Van option but I’m worried with only 50rs on type and 300tt would this be enough to get work ?? I should say I don’t have any string so am happy to work anywhere in Africa
Is this enough, or should I go for the more certain instructor option job wise???
I’ve always wanted to do the contract pilot thing, that’s what got me into this whole business, but after sinking a lot of money and time into this venture I still find myself in a dead end desk job still trying to find my first flying job I have enough money for one last trip to Africa . I have 260hrs SA CPL IR Multi and needs shortly to make a decision on one of two plans
Either complete my JAR conversion ( have the ATPL exams , just have to do the flight test ) and get an Instructors rating to work in UK on very little pay and maybe flying very little due to weather.
Or back down to RSA where I have an opportunity to get a C208B rating and around 40-50hrs P1 flying on it
I’d love it to be the Van option but I’m worried with only 50rs on type and 300tt would this be enough to get work ?? I should say I don’t have any string so am happy to work anywhere in Africa
Is this enough, or should I go for the more certain instructor option job wise???
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Without a doubt, go the Van. It should be sufficient, not to go command on contract but to do the lowveld runs with Fedair and after your time builds, go P1 on contract. By that time though im sure you would be offered a 1900 convex.
However, there are plenty of African companies flying vans etc. SA cew, SA management but foreign reg. All it would be is a validation.
However, there are plenty of African companies flying vans etc. SA cew, SA management but foreign reg. All it would be is a validation.
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The Van is great, i have 1300hrs on her, she is good fun to fly. There is one problem going onto her with such low time, you are going to end up P2 on her for 1000 hrs at least before anyone will give you command, it will frustrate you to hell and back sitting right seat of a single crew aircraft. Try the Delta or Namibia and get a 210 or 206 job to build up command and total time, that way you wont get bored of flying the Van and you can get command rather quick once you do the rating. 50hrs and a conversion? is this one of those buying hrs scams? watch out for those!
Good luck
Dog
Good luck
Dog
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I'm with Contract Dog 100% Go for a 206 or 210 job in Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Malawi, Zambia amongst others.
You'll get P1 time that way which is better for your logbook and your flying. Use the conversion money to travel and find work. Come back to contracts when you've got a few hours behind you. That said contract work is an awesome experience.
You'll get P1 time that way which is better for your logbook and your flying. Use the conversion money to travel and find work. Come back to contracts when you've got a few hours behind you. That said contract work is an awesome experience.
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Thanks for the replies so far, seams like you all have more or less have come to the same conclusion I have. Just to pick up on some of the points raised. I have no objection to right seat, as its all part of the aviation apprenticeship and I’m here to learn. Following my Com. I went up to Maun in December and hung out there 6weeks without any luck, can’t complain though meet some great people and did about 25hrs in the right seat up there. From there I went to Liverstone, Lusaka and Windhook looking for work no joy all were looking for 50hr time on type and I only have a 2hrs on 206’s. As for the Van rating, it’s a good opportunity, slightly more costly rating but comprehensive followed by enroute hours for which I would receive pay. Although I’m happy to pay for my rating, I would never pay for hours build.
I wondering about Tanzania, looks like a good place to start ??
I wondering about Tanzania, looks like a good place to start ??
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If you get a Van rating with your hours you will only be able to work for a South African operator as P2. The other countries don't use P2 pilots in Vans as they operate them as single crew and you don't have enough total time to single crew the Van; therefore it's an either/or decision.
Sorry about your Maun experience but, you're not alone. Yes, Tanzania would be an excellent start along with the others. I've known of guys with less hours get work, you've just got to stick at it and ignore what the operators say about 50 hours on type it's about demand, if they need someone they'll hire you.
On the other hand a Van rating with 50 hours on type will put you in a strong position for a P2 Van job with a South African Van operator. Some advice though: Before doing the conversion go and visit the Van operators in South Africa and ask them if they will need crew and whether you will meet their minimum requirements. Off the top of my head, Fugro, Solenta, King Air Services will be the main players.
Check your pm
Sorry about your Maun experience but, you're not alone. Yes, Tanzania would be an excellent start along with the others. I've known of guys with less hours get work, you've just got to stick at it and ignore what the operators say about 50 hours on type it's about demand, if they need someone they'll hire you.
On the other hand a Van rating with 50 hours on type will put you in a strong position for a P2 Van job with a South African Van operator. Some advice though: Before doing the conversion go and visit the Van operators in South Africa and ask them if they will need crew and whether you will meet their minimum requirements. Off the top of my head, Fugro, Solenta, King Air Services will be the main players.
Check your pm
Last edited by Gooneybird; 6th Jan 2008 at 20:22.
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P1 Time is everything!stick with the Idea of going to namibia or the Delta, get you p1/total time up, and then go for the turbines, that way, you'll get your ATP quicker, and when you make it onto the turbine, you'll get command quickly.good luck!
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Just got a life...
Here's the other side of the coin.
Finish off your JAR licence, start instructing like you say and get into a job flying a jet in the UK or Europe.
I did contract flying in Africa for best part of 6 years and it was great. I would not trade the time in for anything, but you must understand you are only delaying the inevitable.
You obviously have the right to live and work in the UK(guessing) since you have done the JAR theory exams. So, if you do go and fly contracts for a few yeas, it is a job and lifestyle which has a shelf life and you will have to come back to the UK in the end.
The market is booming here in the UK and Europe, and for your 3 years in Africa geting to fly the Caravan or BE-200 or B1900 you could be missing out on unfreezing your JAR ATPL which is what is going to get you a good job.
I think you have to look at it from a long term and financial point of view, and going to fly in Africa is just delaying you getting to a well paid job.
Contract flying is on Caravans, King Air's and 1900, in the UK you have the opportunity to get on to Dash-8's, ATR's, EMB 145 and others, B737's and A320's with low hours.
You have already tried getting a job in Africa and with no luck, you are also at a huge disadvantage as a low houred pilot without South African nationality.
Just a few thoughts to consider, since all the replies so far have been in favour of going.
Here's the other side of the coin.
Finish off your JAR licence, start instructing like you say and get into a job flying a jet in the UK or Europe.
I did contract flying in Africa for best part of 6 years and it was great. I would not trade the time in for anything, but you must understand you are only delaying the inevitable.
You obviously have the right to live and work in the UK(guessing) since you have done the JAR theory exams. So, if you do go and fly contracts for a few yeas, it is a job and lifestyle which has a shelf life and you will have to come back to the UK in the end.
The market is booming here in the UK and Europe, and for your 3 years in Africa geting to fly the Caravan or BE-200 or B1900 you could be missing out on unfreezing your JAR ATPL which is what is going to get you a good job.
I think you have to look at it from a long term and financial point of view, and going to fly in Africa is just delaying you getting to a well paid job.
Contract flying is on Caravans, King Air's and 1900, in the UK you have the opportunity to get on to Dash-8's, ATR's, EMB 145 and others, B737's and A320's with low hours.
You have already tried getting a job in Africa and with no luck, you are also at a huge disadvantage as a low houred pilot without South African nationality.
Just a few thoughts to consider, since all the replies so far have been in favour of going.
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Job Satisfaction is every thing! you say right in the begining that you have always wanted to do 'the contract pilot thing', follow your heart. There is a lot more opportunity for a low time pilot in the UK, I mean guys(and gals) with 500hr TT land jobs on 757's etc. But contract experience will definately help with better positions down the road. Getting onto an aircraft like a 737 with low time has its pro's and con's, The number one con is your time to command will be increased drastically!!!!as you'll have no P1 experience, nobody wants to be a proffesional F/O. Besides the fact that alot of the worlds top airlines regard contract experience quiet highly.
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Fly 1981
Not too sure which airlines regard it so highly, some actual dislike it because we have all done things on contract which definetly do not fit in with the mindset of airlines, also the distinct lack of a set of well thought out SOP's is a disadvantage.
Also, with reference to your statement, 'Getting onto an aircraft like a 737 with low time has its pro's and con's, The number one con is your time to command will be increased drastically!!!!'
That is just not true, for example with Ryan Air or EasyJet, you will do the maximum 900 hours a year, so, with 200 hours, you might be looking at command on a B737 in 3 years, thats not bad in my book.
In those same 3 years down the contract road, you may well end up with command on a King Air or a 1900, and as for the difference in salary, well the two are chalk and cheese!
Not too sure which airlines regard it so highly, some actual dislike it because we have all done things on contract which definetly do not fit in with the mindset of airlines, also the distinct lack of a set of well thought out SOP's is a disadvantage.
Also, with reference to your statement, 'Getting onto an aircraft like a 737 with low time has its pro's and con's, The number one con is your time to command will be increased drastically!!!!'
That is just not true, for example with Ryan Air or EasyJet, you will do the maximum 900 hours a year, so, with 200 hours, you might be looking at command on a B737 in 3 years, thats not bad in my book.
In those same 3 years down the contract road, you may well end up with command on a King Air or a 1900, and as for the difference in salary, well the two are chalk and cheese!
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At 900 hrs a year for 3 years +200hrs, that equals 2900hrs total, bearing in mind that F/O time counts 50% if im not mistaken, you would only just have an ATP, Things must work very differently in the UK! I will have to check up on that one. The likes of Cathay Pacific,emirates and most other airlines in the middle east regard that experience quiet highly. If you look at Cathay for instance, 95% of the south african pilots flying there were contract pilots, and a large percent of them were ross air pilots. Its not so much the 'contract flying' they dont like, its the operator you work for that says alot. All I am saying is contract flying builds you as a pilot, why miss out on it?
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At 900 hrs a year for 3 years +200hrs, that equals 2900hrs total, bearing in mind that F/O time counts 50% if im not mistaken, you would only just have an ATP
Also agree about SA contract pilots being well regarded. You South Africans certainly know how to undersell yourselves at times.
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1981, under JAR we don not have a silly rule where your sic times is only counted as half (why should it, were you only there for half of the time?).
Therefore, 200 hours plus 3 years of 900 hours a year would equal 2900 hours of which 2700 is on that type and you would be holding an ATPL too.
However, there are slightly different requirements in 'opening' one's ATPL, ie. a Multi Pilot type rating is required, plus 500 hours Multi-crew time.
As for Cathay and Emirates(EK require 4000 hours total and that is a lot of contract flying), they may well have a high level of ex-contract guys working for them(95%), but that is not because those companies especially like people who did that type of flying, it is because they met the requirements and passed the interview and selection process, and contract flying is one of the most common routes to gaining experience in southern Africa, so most South Africans will have some contract time in their logbook.
Dont get me wrong, contract flying is a great experience and good fun, but it is nothing more than a delay in getting into a 'proper' company with the markets the way they are in the UK and Europe.
I thought the guy should at least hear another point of view from someone who has done the contract flying thing and then come back to the UK. (other than the odd question about what flying in Africa was like during an interview, it is not like companies think it is valuable time over and above any other type of flying- just my experience)
Therefore, 200 hours plus 3 years of 900 hours a year would equal 2900 hours of which 2700 is on that type and you would be holding an ATPL too.
However, there are slightly different requirements in 'opening' one's ATPL, ie. a Multi Pilot type rating is required, plus 500 hours Multi-crew time.
As for Cathay and Emirates(EK require 4000 hours total and that is a lot of contract flying), they may well have a high level of ex-contract guys working for them(95%), but that is not because those companies especially like people who did that type of flying, it is because they met the requirements and passed the interview and selection process, and contract flying is one of the most common routes to gaining experience in southern Africa, so most South Africans will have some contract time in their logbook.
Dont get me wrong, contract flying is a great experience and good fun, but it is nothing more than a delay in getting into a 'proper' company with the markets the way they are in the UK and Europe.
I thought the guy should at least hear another point of view from someone who has done the contract flying thing and then come back to the UK. (other than the odd question about what flying in Africa was like during an interview, it is not like companies think it is valuable time over and above any other type of flying- just my experience)
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thanks for interest in my post to add a bit more background info…
too old for airline being 40 never interested me anyway, I’ve have friends who fly for Ryanair and Easyjet neither of which are happy and both agree they miss real flying.
I fell in love with Africa, during the time I lived there, and this may be why I have been so determined to find a position there. I would be happy flying anything, as long as I have the privilege betting up in the morning and flying each day
As for career, I would rather fly for a small to medium charter company flying small aircraft working up to turbine who respects my loyalty than fly for a bigger one in which I would just be another pilot. Perfect job would be a contract job working in different places around the continent on the 8wks on 4wks off sort of thing.
As one of you has said so far job satisfaction is everything having no strings means I can have that principle if only I could find that illusive first job
too old for airline being 40 never interested me anyway, I’ve have friends who fly for Ryanair and Easyjet neither of which are happy and both agree they miss real flying.
I fell in love with Africa, during the time I lived there, and this may be why I have been so determined to find a position there. I would be happy flying anything, as long as I have the privilege betting up in the morning and flying each day
As for career, I would rather fly for a small to medium charter company flying small aircraft working up to turbine who respects my loyalty than fly for a bigger one in which I would just be another pilot. Perfect job would be a contract job working in different places around the continent on the 8wks on 4wks off sort of thing.
As one of you has said so far job satisfaction is everything having no strings means I can have that principle if only I could find that illusive first job
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Without meaning to be rude, I didnt realise your age, you didnt mention it earlier.
But in my honest opinion, contract flying and life is a young mans game, it is just one of those things.
Also, I dont know your situation, but if perhaps you are married with a family, contract flying is not likely to pay that well.
You would probably have to move to southern Africa and then you might have to consider leaving your family in a new country while you are on tour.
Many factors to consider.
I honestly would not recommend contract flying to someone of your age and that is by no means me being rude or disrespectful towards you.
My advice to you would be to look to get into a regional operator like Flybe or something where they know you are pretty much going to spend the rest of your flying days, these operators are happy to take guys in your situation as they know you are not looking to be off to a big shiny jet at your first chance.
But in my honest opinion, contract flying and life is a young mans game, it is just one of those things.
Also, I dont know your situation, but if perhaps you are married with a family, contract flying is not likely to pay that well.
You would probably have to move to southern Africa and then you might have to consider leaving your family in a new country while you are on tour.
Many factors to consider.
I honestly would not recommend contract flying to someone of your age and that is by no means me being rude or disrespectful towards you.
My advice to you would be to look to get into a regional operator like Flybe or something where they know you are pretty much going to spend the rest of your flying days, these operators are happy to take guys in your situation as they know you are not looking to be off to a big shiny jet at your first chance.
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Justgotalife,
In your last post you've just answered your own question!
Lots of valid points made in this thread but it sounds like you really want to be out on contract, so get yourself out to Africa and see where it leads you! The Caravan is a great machine to start on and is in use all over Africa.
Remember it is mostly who you know, not what you know, down there. Having a few beers with the pilots around places like Maun, Wilson Nairobi, Arusha etc might just open up some doors for you!
Good luck and enjoy- contract flying is the best form of hands-on flying you will ever do
In your last post you've just answered your own question!
Lots of valid points made in this thread but it sounds like you really want to be out on contract, so get yourself out to Africa and see where it leads you! The Caravan is a great machine to start on and is in use all over Africa.
Remember it is mostly who you know, not what you know, down there. Having a few beers with the pilots around places like Maun, Wilson Nairobi, Arusha etc might just open up some doors for you!
Good luck and enjoy- contract flying is the best form of hands-on flying you will ever do
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1981, under JAR we don not have a silly rule where your sic times is only counted as half (why should it, were you only there for half of the time?).
Therefore, 200 hours plus 3 years of 900 hours a year would equal 2900 hours of which 2700 is on that type and you would be holding an ATPL too.
I thought the guy should at least hear another point of view from someone who has done the contract flying thing and then come back to the UK.
Therefore, 200 hours plus 3 years of 900 hours a year would equal 2900 hours of which 2700 is on that type and you would be holding an ATPL too.
I thought the guy should at least hear another point of view from someone who has done the contract flying thing and then come back to the UK.
One thing though, I think there is a career in contracts for those who want one and I know plenty of 'older' pilots doing just that. Horses for courses mate. I personally don't miss UK lifestyle and don't miss 40% taxes either.
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Of course GB, but some of the 'older' guys within the contract flying world are guys who have been doing it for years and have never wanted to do anything else.
That is slightly different from starting out in the contract world at 40.
Maybe thats what this poster wants, to live that kind of life, I speak only from my own experiences and as I got older the thought of being away for 6 weeks at a time, unable to hold down a relationship because you are never around, living in the a*re-holes of the world, for relatively average money is something I did only put up with because it was just me who I had to consider at that stage of my life and I surely could not go back to that kind of life now, and thats at the age of 32.
As for paying 40% tax, one must be on GBP 50k+ to fall into that bracket and if you are earning that much then your net is pretty good anyhow.
Tax is just one of those things we HAVE to do, its like dying, and I would rather pay it than have someone knock on my door 5 or 10 years down the line and then destroy your life by wanting the full back dated amount or you go to jail.
Also, at least in the UK you get something for your taxes, it is not perfect as you know, but we get free health care, free education, no roads with pot holes, traffic lights that dont go out every other afternoon and politicians who may well be corrupt, but no where near as corrupt or dishonest as in an African counrty where you may have to reside during your off time while working contracts.
May I ask where you are residing and paying tax?
I am not trying to say contract flying is bad or something he should not do, but I do believe the guy should hear the negative points to it as all he has got so far is the 'romantic' advice of, ' go and do some real flying in some strange and exciting places in Africa'.
Another point to consider, the majority of posters on this subject, I would hazard a guess at, are people who have done contract flying and are now doing something else or people who are using it as a stepping stone to something else, so you/they know it is not forever, now imagine if you were going to be doing contract flying forever, the picture might not be so pretty.
This is why he deserves to know all aspects of contract flying.
That is slightly different from starting out in the contract world at 40.
Maybe thats what this poster wants, to live that kind of life, I speak only from my own experiences and as I got older the thought of being away for 6 weeks at a time, unable to hold down a relationship because you are never around, living in the a*re-holes of the world, for relatively average money is something I did only put up with because it was just me who I had to consider at that stage of my life and I surely could not go back to that kind of life now, and thats at the age of 32.
As for paying 40% tax, one must be on GBP 50k+ to fall into that bracket and if you are earning that much then your net is pretty good anyhow.
Tax is just one of those things we HAVE to do, its like dying, and I would rather pay it than have someone knock on my door 5 or 10 years down the line and then destroy your life by wanting the full back dated amount or you go to jail.
Also, at least in the UK you get something for your taxes, it is not perfect as you know, but we get free health care, free education, no roads with pot holes, traffic lights that dont go out every other afternoon and politicians who may well be corrupt, but no where near as corrupt or dishonest as in an African counrty where you may have to reside during your off time while working contracts.
May I ask where you are residing and paying tax?
I am not trying to say contract flying is bad or something he should not do, but I do believe the guy should hear the negative points to it as all he has got so far is the 'romantic' advice of, ' go and do some real flying in some strange and exciting places in Africa'.
Another point to consider, the majority of posters on this subject, I would hazard a guess at, are people who have done contract flying and are now doing something else or people who are using it as a stepping stone to something else, so you/they know it is not forever, now imagine if you were going to be doing contract flying forever, the picture might not be so pretty.
This is why he deserves to know all aspects of contract flying.