Pilots Lisence vs. Diploma vs. Degree
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indicative of nothing more than an ability to achieve nothing very much whilst simply awaiting the foregone results of reflective advantage. As such, one might just as well mail order the piece of parchment from Harare with Ebagum's signature on the flapping seal for all the international credence that such variations on the theme of Bronco Lane might afford.
. Both my degree and cpl/instuctors took some serious studying. Although, the degree much more so...Interesting statistic: At UP in 2001, ±600 people enrolled for B.comm Accounting (future CA's intent on taking over the world). In 2002 110 finished their second year. Call that what you want, but i would like to know what the ratio is of ppl pilots starting studying their comm and then never completing it. When you get to tersiary study level, many many people just can't hack it, is this true for CPL / ATPL exams as well? I am not talking re-writes, I am talking about giving it up, changing you goal. I am not being sarcastic, i would really like to know.
Está servira para distraerle.
Whilst a great admirer of the discoveries of that well known Iraqi Muslim, Abu Ali-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham, one is totally and absolutely not in the dark. That would be a very bad place to be altogether.
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There are future prospects that a CPL will become a Diploma and an ATPL a degree in Bav (Batchelors in aviation). I dont want to divulge too much info...but there has been meetings regarding Sakwa accreditation for Pilots licences.
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Size counts
I believe that not all degrees are similar in "difficulty", so what are you comparing? BSc to licence, or BA with bible study and Sociology to the ATP?
I think the only people to compare are those who have both, and different degrees too as mentioned.
But once again, this is ANOTHER "My willy is bigger than yours" post.
I think the only people to compare are those who have both, and different degrees too as mentioned.
But once again, this is ANOTHER "My willy is bigger than yours" post.
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There are future prospects that a CPL will become a Diploma and an ATPL a degree in Bav (Batchelors in aviation). I dont want to divulge too much info...but there has been meetings regarding Sakwa accreditation for Pilots licences.
Anybody with a degree will know that getting Comm or ATP subjects is probably equal to one semester at varsity.
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I'm currently busy with my 1st year in tertiary studies,Bsc, and having a CPL aswell...i would have to say that one cannot compare the two..they are uniquely challenging in their own way...each having its own degree of difficulty, as far as workload goes..I'd say CPL is rougly equivalent to 1yr tertiary...but let me not generalise too much...as there are many other fields where the workload is much higher...
My personal opinion is that a CPL+ATPL deserves more recognition than merely a license,but not quite to the level of a degree... Maybe if they combine aviation safety or some type of management aspect into it then yes...
My personal opinion is that a CPL+ATPL deserves more recognition than merely a license,but not quite to the level of a degree... Maybe if they combine aviation safety or some type of management aspect into it then yes...
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How can you compare the 2 ? A ATPL is not just exams..its 5 years experience with so much knowledge you have to build up during the 5 years to get somewhere. Its the best job in the world, flying at high mach numbers and 40 000 ft. What a office, and we getting payed to do it ! Awsome !!!!
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Just like any other job? The degree is only the start in any career.....
The difference between most degrees and a com licence is that the com is vocational (ie. you are trained to perform specific tasks.), whereas most degrees require you to apply the knowledge gained in creative ways to arrive at new results.
You don't want a pilot to come up with creative new ways of flying the aeroplane - he/should be trained to follow well thought out SOPs with as little deviation as possible.
Having both the degree and the ATPL I would say you cannot compare the two. The degree was a lot more mentally challenging (engineering), although that does not take anything away from the amount of work needed to complete the ATPL and subsequent type ratings etc.
The difference between most degrees and a com licence is that the com is vocational (ie. you are trained to perform specific tasks.), whereas most degrees require you to apply the knowledge gained in creative ways to arrive at new results.
You don't want a pilot to come up with creative new ways of flying the aeroplane - he/should be trained to follow well thought out SOPs with as little deviation as possible.
Having both the degree and the ATPL I would say you cannot compare the two. The degree was a lot more mentally challenging (engineering), although that does not take anything away from the amount of work needed to complete the ATPL and subsequent type ratings etc.
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Professionals
Now if we could only get these degree bearing professionals to also be subjected to a test and medical twice a year to ensure they are still capable of doing their jobs?
As for degree attrition rates: During the good old SAAF selection board and pupes course the attrition rate was considerably larger than that mentioned in the earlier post. In fact just the selection board had about an 11% pass rate.
As for degree attrition rates: During the good old SAAF selection board and pupes course the attrition rate was considerably larger than that mentioned in the earlier post. In fact just the selection board had about an 11% pass rate.
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Now if we could only get these degree bearing professionals to also be subjected to a test and medical twice a year to ensure they are still capable of doing their jobs?
In aviation, small mistakes can normally be recovered and hidden and large mistakes might get you fired. You really have to stuff up (as in illegal stuff) to lose your license.
Face it. Pilots are blue collar workers and if they want a degree, they can always go to varsity and get one. Being Africa, you might even be able to buy one.
I take it the next suggestion on this forum will be that all pilots with CPL should get SAAF silver wings and those with ATP should get SAAF gold wings........................
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Large mistakes in aviation get you killed
Having worked as a professional engineer and these days as an airline pilot, I think I am suitably qualified to comment.
I'm not saying that pilots are better or worse than graduate professionals. I am only saying that a Comm or ATP is not remotely the same as a B.Eng. or B.Sc(Eng) and if you want a degree, I suggest that the syllabus changes to a graduate level. Won't be many ATP's around.............
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Call any qualification just what you like. What does it matter? It is what is required to do the job. Whether ATPL to fly the airplane, or MBChB MMed FCS to wield the knife upon diseased flesh, or BA LLB to technically get a guilty bastard off the hook, each field to its own. ATPL is just as much a hard worked-for qualification than any bum-and-elbow bruising university degree. The margin for error and digress from exacting standard procedure is just far less forgiving than for the philosophical ramblings that may swing a juror's opinion in a courtroom. In my book, ATPL is way up there with the other higher qualifications.
By the way, "licence" is a noun, "license" is a verb. Simple.
By the way, "licence" is a noun, "license" is a verb. Simple.
Found this recently on a US Flight School website;
"The ATP is the academic equivalent of a PhD/Doctorate. It is the highest pilot certificate possible to obtain, and requires the most stringent and refined professional attitudes and responsibilities, skills, and further development through your own research and review of the aviation industry."
"The ATP is the academic equivalent of a PhD/Doctorate. It is the highest pilot certificate possible to obtain, and requires the most stringent and refined professional attitudes and responsibilities, skills, and further development through your own research and review of the aviation industry."
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An ATP is NOT like a PhD. Just because it is the highest qualification, doesn't mean it is the equivalent. The advert is just that, an advert. Most US airlines require a bachelors degree. More than half of all aircraft registered in the word are in the US. More than half of all professional pilots have university degrees. Consider this a de facto requirement.
I hear people rationalize not having a degree all the time. Folks with degrees generally do not regret getting them. A degree is more than a piece of paper. It teaches one necessary skills to prosper, social skills, critical thinking, time management, hustle skills and a host of other non quantifiable assets. Many universities offer flying programs, or as I did, flew while earning my degree. See above for skill set earned.
I hear people rationalize not having a degree all the time. Folks with degrees generally do not regret getting them. A degree is more than a piece of paper. It teaches one necessary skills to prosper, social skills, critical thinking, time management, hustle skills and a host of other non quantifiable assets. Many universities offer flying programs, or as I did, flew while earning my degree. See above for skill set earned.
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Whilst I agree that the European ATP has a claim to an equivalency with some degree levels the US ATP most definitely does not. When converting to an FAA ATP back in 1999 I completed my ground exams in one sitting on a computer in 40 min and achieved 87%. Little more than doing a PPL in Europe and a world away from my UK ATP sat in the 80s.
I wouldn't want to get into a pointless discussion over which system is better but responding to the original question posed I would say.. European License; Yes. FAA; No
I wouldn't want to get into a pointless discussion over which system is better but responding to the original question posed I would say.. European License; Yes. FAA; No
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Complete and utter nonsense to equate ATPL with a degree. It is a practical 12 month blue -collar training course, albeit a very stringent and extensive one but one restricted to knowledge of facts and demonstration of prowess.
A degree is (usually) a three year course involving by definition a thesis which requires individual and original research into producing a paper that attempts to prove or justify a proposition by application of such research and logic. An ATPL bears no resemblance to this whatsoever.
I daresay the CAA will offer you "degree status" for an ATPL these days, and if, as stated above, automatically give you a 2:1 for it regardless of your exam results I think that merely demonstrates the pathetically weak and artificial standard the degree has reached in our society ever since Labour "governments" decided everyone ought to have one regardless of ability and relabelled all the Technical Colleges and Polys "universities" and relabelled HNDs and HNCs "degrees" and handed them out like crisp packets. Clearly not all are like this, but the vast majority are.
This fetish for a degree is neither useful nor helpful and although the majority of "degree" students could no more achieve an ATPL than swim to the moon there seem to be many pilots who hanker for the "cachet" of this bauble of academia, even though it is now more akin to a christmas-cracker gee-gaw than a true accolade.
Get over it, if you've got an ATPL that is truly something to be proud of, but don't kid yourself that you've done any original research and written a paper to prove it if you haven't!
A degree is (usually) a three year course involving by definition a thesis which requires individual and original research into producing a paper that attempts to prove or justify a proposition by application of such research and logic. An ATPL bears no resemblance to this whatsoever.
I daresay the CAA will offer you "degree status" for an ATPL these days, and if, as stated above, automatically give you a 2:1 for it regardless of your exam results I think that merely demonstrates the pathetically weak and artificial standard the degree has reached in our society ever since Labour "governments" decided everyone ought to have one regardless of ability and relabelled all the Technical Colleges and Polys "universities" and relabelled HNDs and HNCs "degrees" and handed them out like crisp packets. Clearly not all are like this, but the vast majority are.
This fetish for a degree is neither useful nor helpful and although the majority of "degree" students could no more achieve an ATPL than swim to the moon there seem to be many pilots who hanker for the "cachet" of this bauble of academia, even though it is now more akin to a christmas-cracker gee-gaw than a true accolade.
Get over it, if you've got an ATPL that is truly something to be proud of, but don't kid yourself that you've done any original research and written a paper to prove it if you haven't!
