43 Air School for a Kenyan
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Sheesh!
What a tank slapper this is turning out to be.
I cant say i've ever met someone from 43 who wasnt just that little bit TOO full of themselves for my personal comfort, but also have never heard anyone say anything about rasism either.
Why would a school (in africa) that gets contracts to train cadets for airlines (in africa) allow even the hint of racial discrimination to pop up? It simply doesnt make sense...but then again, neither did apartheid, and that happened...
I think 43 is in a very complex situation (the unofficial reason SAA took their first cadets off to Australia). You train people from all races and backgrounds...most of them there (unfortunately) on the basis of "its a cool job and you make lots of cash" (and not because its in the blood). Now, should a black candidate fail, the avenue of crying rasist (considdering South Africa's past) is the most comfortable to pursue. Who of us LIKES admitting we cant do something? Any takers? I doubt it.
Face it...there are infinite scenarios here, and i certainly would be more worried about pilots walking out of a school with commercial licenses who dont know how to make contact with a ground controller...than whether or not claims of rasism is calls for a crisis.
What a tank slapper this is turning out to be.
I cant say i've ever met someone from 43 who wasnt just that little bit TOO full of themselves for my personal comfort, but also have never heard anyone say anything about rasism either.
Why would a school (in africa) that gets contracts to train cadets for airlines (in africa) allow even the hint of racial discrimination to pop up? It simply doesnt make sense...but then again, neither did apartheid, and that happened...
I think 43 is in a very complex situation (the unofficial reason SAA took their first cadets off to Australia). You train people from all races and backgrounds...most of them there (unfortunately) on the basis of "its a cool job and you make lots of cash" (and not because its in the blood). Now, should a black candidate fail, the avenue of crying rasist (considdering South Africa's past) is the most comfortable to pursue. Who of us LIKES admitting we cant do something? Any takers? I doubt it.
Face it...there are infinite scenarios here, and i certainly would be more worried about pilots walking out of a school with commercial licenses who dont know how to make contact with a ground controller...than whether or not claims of rasism is calls for a crisis.
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I had to pay for all of my training from PPL to ATP and wasn't cheap and did some training with 43 as well ..
Some Piper 140 lost its main gear on sand dune while back if I remember..
Pilots???
Some Piper 140 lost its main gear on sand dune while back if I remember..
Pilots???
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Tay19. Yes, unfortunately I feel that I am on a battlefield when it comes to this topic. Sslut, I have to agree with you. We are being pulled into this VERY easily which just shows that racism isnt dead in SA, its FAR from it. It just kills me when in SA we enough of this race naming game. Accusing fellow South Africans of racism when it isnt called for just to get their way. My point is that we DONT need a foreigner adding fuel to this fire. Anyway guys no problem with you okes and MusaQ, Im not taking back what I said but its cool man, if that wasnt what you meant to say, well whatever, just next time be a bit more tactful. You can now see how fragile this topic is, even 13 years on! Cheerio all! 
Got an open seat next to you sslut? Im over posting here, Ill have a coke as well.
Got an open seat next to you sslut? Im over posting here, Ill have a coke as well.
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Go MusaQ ....
Had to contribute to this. I finished from the school too a year back privately. I may not go as far as using the race card, maybe musaQ has genuine isuues to pick.
Come to think of it, some of the things I remember at the time of leaving was:
FACT1: There were no black Instructors.Nope. None - Maybe things have changed since then but makes you wonder what Africa that was. Hard reconciling that with flying. Gives Instructors reasons to chide the black folks that maybe they werent meant to be pilots...... instead of maybe questioning their competence to instruct.
The most a black was, was a mechanic or cleaning lady. They always seemed to do what the white man didnt want to do. Never saw a black supervisor. So much for a racial Policy - IN AFRICA OF ALL PLACES.
FACT2: Never saw a white chap being washed out - makes you wonder whether flying does not transcend race. At least one white chap for the multitude of blacks washed out. Again that was then maybe things have changed.
I got to finish bt the school was particularly strict with KAirwys and SAA guys. I pitied them since i know KAirwys guys passed lots of interviews to get there and they seemed to never get away with anything I could get away with. (funny i had failed one of their interviews). I think the school HAD to wash out someone as a policy and the unlucky chaps always got it. I think they went through what a private student wouldnt, I would just pack my money and go.
Sorry guys but I thought I had to chip in. On merit the school is OK - keeps you on your toes, the Navs used to rock. Some Instructors were super cool and just great.
musaQ, I hope you get to get your licence someway. Maybe then the chaps at 43 will see their folly.
Other Chaps, dont waste a good forum by polluting it - do you feel hurt by the allegations or covering up for what you know.... The whole world is going to it too
Come to think of it, some of the things I remember at the time of leaving was:
FACT1: There were no black Instructors.Nope. None - Maybe things have changed since then but makes you wonder what Africa that was. Hard reconciling that with flying. Gives Instructors reasons to chide the black folks that maybe they werent meant to be pilots...... instead of maybe questioning their competence to instruct.
The most a black was, was a mechanic or cleaning lady. They always seemed to do what the white man didnt want to do. Never saw a black supervisor. So much for a racial Policy - IN AFRICA OF ALL PLACES.
FACT2: Never saw a white chap being washed out - makes you wonder whether flying does not transcend race. At least one white chap for the multitude of blacks washed out. Again that was then maybe things have changed.
I got to finish bt the school was particularly strict with KAirwys and SAA guys. I pitied them since i know KAirwys guys passed lots of interviews to get there and they seemed to never get away with anything I could get away with. (funny i had failed one of their interviews). I think the school HAD to wash out someone as a policy and the unlucky chaps always got it. I think they went through what a private student wouldnt, I would just pack my money and go.
Sorry guys but I thought I had to chip in. On merit the school is OK - keeps you on your toes, the Navs used to rock. Some Instructors were super cool and just great.
musaQ, I hope you get to get your licence someway. Maybe then the chaps at 43 will see their folly.
Other Chaps, dont waste a good forum by polluting it - do you feel hurt by the allegations or covering up for what you know.... The whole world is going to it too
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Ouch ..
Racism has the oppressed and the oppresser. Some benefit by it's policies while others suffer under it. The most vexed ex 43 here seem to have benefited by it. Look around and smell the coffee - this is not a personal attack just a wrong committed that should be corrected. I know i wouldnt raise hell if I made it through because I was white. Maybe I'd be too blind to see it, but my conscience wouldnt be clear if i let it go because it wasnt me. 
It is said those who condone evil are more guilty than those who commit it.
Deal with it, an open forum that needs discussing not denial. Dont bury your heads in the sand guys...
It is said those who condone evil are more guilty than those who commit it.
Deal with it, an open forum that needs discussing not denial. Dont bury your heads in the sand guys...
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i'm not going to confirm that 43 is racist but it's a no brainer that racism is very prevalent in south african aviation. it's an industry with a very big single race dominating and recently other races were open to join up, so there's going to be a lot of discrimination to the new entrants-that's a fact. the dissapointment is that a lot of the priviledged people are not embracing this opportunity to have equal status to all south african residents but they are painting themselves in the corner and pointing that the measures to level the field are not fair.
when SAA and the government decided on the cadet programme they seeked to address this issue but all the targets they have set have been missed. you must also understand that for SAA only to have a BEE program(which no longer exists anyway) is not enough. SAA is not the only aviation company in SA. Look at other private companies, flying schools, airport operators, and ask yourself, is there a real vision to address centuries of unfair treatment to other human races in our contry.
just look at the replies,apparently if a black person goes into aviation, it's because they have political connections. i beg to differ.
to all aspirant pilots of colour i suggest they ignore totally, all calls refering them as inferior and flying because of the gravy train. i'm not on gravy train. i pay for all my training because of the satisfaction i get in flying. like the guy from Kenya airways, he had no idea of the situation in SA at first and he got a bit of a surprise.THE THINGS YOU HEAR BEING SAID IN AFRIKAANS IN THE BRIEFING ROOMS ABOUT BLACK PILOTS, SOMETIMES MAKES YOU WONDER IF SA IS STILL UNDER VERWOED. ..........for me what i do, i know myself, i fly. i enjoy it, i have fun. if you don't like it ....tough. fortunately i got an opportunity to have good financial base from my previous work. not many people are that lucky. very few ACTUALLY .
i agree that no one should continue flying if they are not safe. i would't go flying if i thought i can't hack it. i love airplanes too much to intentionally bend one.
FINALLY, I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGISE TO ALL THOSE INDIVIDUALS IN SA AVIATION WHO ARE TRULY COMMITTED TO NON-RACIAL AVIATION IN SA. I HAVE WORKED WITH LOTS OF INSTRUCTORS AND PILOTS WHO WON'T JUDGE YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR RACE AND SOME OF THEM WERE VERY GOOD MENTORS OF MINE.
when SAA and the government decided on the cadet programme they seeked to address this issue but all the targets they have set have been missed. you must also understand that for SAA only to have a BEE program(which no longer exists anyway) is not enough. SAA is not the only aviation company in SA. Look at other private companies, flying schools, airport operators, and ask yourself, is there a real vision to address centuries of unfair treatment to other human races in our contry.
just look at the replies,apparently if a black person goes into aviation, it's because they have political connections. i beg to differ.
to all aspirant pilots of colour i suggest they ignore totally, all calls refering them as inferior and flying because of the gravy train. i'm not on gravy train. i pay for all my training because of the satisfaction i get in flying. like the guy from Kenya airways, he had no idea of the situation in SA at first and he got a bit of a surprise.THE THINGS YOU HEAR BEING SAID IN AFRIKAANS IN THE BRIEFING ROOMS ABOUT BLACK PILOTS, SOMETIMES MAKES YOU WONDER IF SA IS STILL UNDER VERWOED. ..........for me what i do, i know myself, i fly. i enjoy it, i have fun. if you don't like it ....tough. fortunately i got an opportunity to have good financial base from my previous work. not many people are that lucky. very few ACTUALLY .
i agree that no one should continue flying if they are not safe. i would't go flying if i thought i can't hack it. i love airplanes too much to intentionally bend one.
FINALLY, I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGISE TO ALL THOSE INDIVIDUALS IN SA AVIATION WHO ARE TRULY COMMITTED TO NON-RACIAL AVIATION IN SA. I HAVE WORKED WITH LOTS OF INSTRUCTORS AND PILOTS WHO WON'T JUDGE YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR RACE AND SOME OF THEM WERE VERY GOOD MENTORS OF MINE.
Last edited by contrails8; 29th May 2010 at 08:55.
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I think that we all agree that Rasicm is alive and well, no matter how many people dienie it. I have lived/travelled all over the world and what I have learn't is that people aren't racist per sa, but they don't however understand the culture. I think that there are very few people in the world that dislike a certain person, they moreover see that person as representing a certain culture which is unfair. I would hate to discrimated against because of what Britian has done to other cultures.
MusaQ did you highlight this problem with 43 or Kenya Airlines?
MusaQ did you highlight this problem with 43 or Kenya Airlines?
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Of Course Racisim is alive and well in SA, and endorsed by the government nogal.
What do you think Affirmative action and BEE are? Racisim pure and simple.
At present in SA there is discrimination against white males getting many jobs, that is racisim
Racisim is not about the "Non White person" always being the victim its exactly what the definition above suggests, its just a pitty that many people who feel they have been victimised for whatever reason just or unjust whip out the racism card as the proverbial answer to there problems, I would suggest a more frugal use of the term racist, its such an easy way out (just ask OJ Simpson) and every time you use it it gives less meaning to the people who are truly victims of racism.
MusaQ you have given no detail whatsoever about this alleged racisim at 43, I must say I find it difficult to believe that at a flying school that earns huge revenue from foreign students like yourself and from companies like SAA who are fierce proponents of non-racisim (but happily practice it with there employment policies....I must add) racisim could exist, you are implying that its not just one instructor but a whole group, because it would take more than one to wash you from a course. Oh to be born with a black skin...every time something does not go my way I just shout "Racism" and it all gets better
What do you think Affirmative action and BEE are? Racisim pure and simple.
racism
• noun 1 the belief that there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race. 2 discrimination against or antagonism towards other races.
• noun 1 the belief that there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race. 2 discrimination against or antagonism towards other races.
Racisim is not about the "Non White person" always being the victim its exactly what the definition above suggests, its just a pitty that many people who feel they have been victimised for whatever reason just or unjust whip out the racism card as the proverbial answer to there problems, I would suggest a more frugal use of the term racist, its such an easy way out (just ask OJ Simpson) and every time you use it it gives less meaning to the people who are truly victims of racism.
MusaQ you have given no detail whatsoever about this alleged racisim at 43, I must say I find it difficult to believe that at a flying school that earns huge revenue from foreign students like yourself and from companies like SAA who are fierce proponents of non-racisim (but happily practice it with there employment policies....I must add) racisim could exist, you are implying that its not just one instructor but a whole group, because it would take more than one to wash you from a course. Oh to be born with a black skin...every time something does not go my way I just shout "Racism" and it all gets better
Last edited by fluffyfan; 3rd May 2007 at 20:38.
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MusaQ, in doing what he feels is right in defending his ego which was probably dented because of a lack of skill/commitement...cries rasism.
In defending themselves because of an inherent feeling of guilt for some deeply hidden rasism... some of the respondants cry sour grapes.
In defending MusaQ... yet more of the respondants cry fowl which only points to highlight their own deep rooted "rasist" trends because in defending musa...we are saying he/she is incapable of defending him/herself.
Lets face it, the one thread brough through this whole thing is how self concious and insecure pilots are. If we aren't out defending ourselves, we are either our defending the world or other people. Defend defend defend...
If we all just had it in us to live within ourselves, and take responsibility for who we are and what we can and can't...
... this would probably be a very boring forum.
In defending themselves because of an inherent feeling of guilt for some deeply hidden rasism... some of the respondants cry sour grapes.
In defending MusaQ... yet more of the respondants cry fowl which only points to highlight their own deep rooted "rasist" trends because in defending musa...we are saying he/she is incapable of defending him/herself.
Lets face it, the one thread brough through this whole thing is how self concious and insecure pilots are. If we aren't out defending ourselves, we are either our defending the world or other people. Defend defend defend...
If we all just had it in us to live within ourselves, and take responsibility for who we are and what we can and can't...
... this would probably be a very boring forum.
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I don’t think they should bin the thread, because believe it or not I think its actually quite healthy being able to talk about racism, like this maybe we can get our respective views across, just as long as it does not go too far then I am sure the moderator will bin the thread.
ugflyer, your quote
I ask you to re-think this comment, it is a huge generalisation and runs along the same line of painting all black people as criminals, of course they are not, and neither are all the whiteys how you suggest above, perhaps you should read up a bit on the history of SA before you make comments like that, I see you come from the USA, heres a suggestion, go and solve your own race problems first before you come shouting here about something you seem to know little about. And when you are finished fixing your own race problems then maybe you can look at your own countries foreign policy and the systematic destruction of whole countries to suit yourselves.
Now whether you like it or not Racism is defined as it is, and as the definition stands the SA government is actively practicing racism, the same stuff is happening in SA now as it was in the old days, except that now its the other way around and people like yourself are standing up and clapping your hands and saying its justified.....well are you not just like the so called whites you accuse of being complicit in apartheid?
Yes and we have heard it all before, the horrid colonialists came an colonised Africa, put the people into slavery, raped the continent of its natural resources, its true they did, this has been happening across the planet ever since man stepped on 2 feet, the Romans did the same with Europe, the Mongols with Asia. After WW2 every city in Germany was virtually wiped off the map, Japan was Nuked twice.........what do all these countries have in common, they came back and thrived, Germany and Japan took 40 years to become some of the strongest economies in the world. Now you please explain to me why Africa is unable to do the same, Africa has been ruling itself for a long time now, and all we have is death destruction, poverty, crime, greed..........we could try to find out why and solve the problem or we could just shout Racism and blame someone else
ugflyer, your quote
I do not even begin to understand how some of you are calling the current South African policies of affirmative action racist. It is simply beyond comprehension. I cannot help but wonder where you were when the blacks were being oppressed before. Were you condemning the actions back then as racist? I doubt you were.......the only thing you could have been doing was lining your pockets
Now whether you like it or not Racism is defined as it is, and as the definition stands the SA government is actively practicing racism, the same stuff is happening in SA now as it was in the old days, except that now its the other way around and people like yourself are standing up and clapping your hands and saying its justified.....well are you not just like the so called whites you accuse of being complicit in apartheid?
Yes and we have heard it all before, the horrid colonialists came an colonised Africa, put the people into slavery, raped the continent of its natural resources, its true they did, this has been happening across the planet ever since man stepped on 2 feet, the Romans did the same with Europe, the Mongols with Asia. After WW2 every city in Germany was virtually wiped off the map, Japan was Nuked twice.........what do all these countries have in common, they came back and thrived, Germany and Japan took 40 years to become some of the strongest economies in the world. Now you please explain to me why Africa is unable to do the same, Africa has been ruling itself for a long time now, and all we have is death destruction, poverty, crime, greed..........we could try to find out why and solve the problem or we could just shout Racism and blame someone else
Last edited by fluffyfan; 5th May 2007 at 12:51.
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Ugflyer, who do you think you are?! You've made some shocking generalisations here and I would have to say that you've just dropped the level of this thread to nothing more than a hypocritical mudslinging contest. I have been refraining from posting here for obvious reasons, but I couldn't sit by and let you accuse all white South Africans of crimes against their fellow humans based, probably, on what you've seen on the news and biased opinion gleaned from questionable sources. If you've had more realistic first hand exposure to life in SA before, and after, the change of regime then it isn't evident from your arrogant, bombastic utterings above.
There's no denying what's been done in the past, but to accuse all present day whites in SA of deserving whatever it is that comes their way because of past injustices perpetrated by their forefathers is ridiculous. A lot of people who are living and working with the current state of affairs weren't even out of school by the time the new government took over in 1994. And speaking of 'disenfranchising the natives and the foreigners gaining everything', your lot don't exactly have the most spotless record on their own doorstep in that department either if you go back a while.
As far as MusaQ's predicament goes, none of us knows exactly what happened because we weren't in his shoes. To automatically discredit those claims isn't fair and merely adds to the whole perception of wrongdoing and prejudice.
Ugflyer, get a life.
There's no denying what's been done in the past, but to accuse all present day whites in SA of deserving whatever it is that comes their way because of past injustices perpetrated by their forefathers is ridiculous. A lot of people who are living and working with the current state of affairs weren't even out of school by the time the new government took over in 1994. And speaking of 'disenfranchising the natives and the foreigners gaining everything', your lot don't exactly have the most spotless record on their own doorstep in that department either if you go back a while.
As far as MusaQ's predicament goes, none of us knows exactly what happened because we weren't in his shoes. To automatically discredit those claims isn't fair and merely adds to the whole perception of wrongdoing and prejudice.
Ugflyer, get a life.
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ugflyer... what point is there to play the primary school game of, "i am right because my aeroplane can fly the highest"? Are you serious? Does this sufficiently prove your point to yourself?
I would suggest that as an outsider, not only in the South African context, but very much also in the greater African context ( herein the bait) you should rather refrain from shouting, before running off to FL350 where you feel safe.
You are aware that the USA is the most unliked nation on the planet today? Can you maybe see why?
I am not coming in support for anyone nor anything racist, but dont pretent to know and comment on the realities of whats happening in Africa...from your highly enlighted FL350...
MusaQ, I hope that you find what you are looking for at your new training school. Just remember, this is flying and your life as well as other's are at stake. Its not accounting where you will just be bored stiff if its not your thing. Should you not be cut out for flying, apart from the fact that you wont be happy, people could die.
If you were mistreated at 43, thats just not on and i feel for you. If you failed because you failed... face the facts and get over yourself.
I would suggest that as an outsider, not only in the South African context, but very much also in the greater African context ( herein the bait) you should rather refrain from shouting, before running off to FL350 where you feel safe.
You are aware that the USA is the most unliked nation on the planet today? Can you maybe see why?
I am not coming in support for anyone nor anything racist, but dont pretent to know and comment on the realities of whats happening in Africa...from your highly enlighted FL350...
MusaQ, I hope that you find what you are looking for at your new training school. Just remember, this is flying and your life as well as other's are at stake. Its not accounting where you will just be bored stiff if its not your thing. Should you not be cut out for flying, apart from the fact that you wont be happy, people could die.
If you were mistreated at 43, thats just not on and i feel for you. If you failed because you failed... face the facts and get over yourself.
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Our industry needs stable individuals in the left hand seat of the cockpit. We need to be wholly transparent in our attitudes and ideally harbour neither a bleeding heart nor any form of prejudices. We should be well trained in order that we perform to the standards set by the regulators and safely operate day after day. If during training, atitudes or physical performance should drop below requirements, then it is time for the individual to find an alternative profession. Flying does not suit everyones skill set and should an individual not suceed in his desire, he should accept it and move on with their lives! Too many accidents have been caused and too many lives lost by pilots with very borderline ability!
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Focus guys
SkyChick2,
My current school in SA is better, though it took me some months to comprehend what had happened and sort my finances before I went back to flying. I got my PPL and am hoping to get a CPL in future. It's obviously harder now that i have to cough up the dough but i think i'll manage in the end. Part of the difference is that the school treats me as a client and i feel appreciated plus i got more confident since am not subject to wild swings. They respect me as compared to 43 where I was just another Company statistic. The boys at 43 infact bragged of only being answerable to the company and believe me, you are at their mercy.
If I may describe my last flight at 43 :
... it was like being dragged on your feet, put on the pilot seat with a gun pointed to your head and told to fly with the big boy on the other seat ....
Because for them to send you back, they must show that it was in the opinion of the big guy that you cant fly so your last flight has to be with him. So the report is crafted with supporting figures - never mind that the flight file is conveniently put away.
So you get to fly terrified and on the debrief they can write anything, who cares it is their word against yours and in any case you are labeled problematic and so any denials later should be seen in that light.
So why fly in the first place on that state of mind? Do you have a choice, if you walk away you might as well kiss your sponsorship goodbye. If you'd been a private student you'd just take a walk, take your cash elsewhere - guess that's why private students have it easier comparatively. A Company sponsored chap is stuck with them so you cant just walk away. And since you've been singled out it is 'apparent that only you are having problems' - age old method of divide and conquer.
Guys focus. Two wrongs indeed do not make a right. If we have the chance to correct what's happening now we should. We owe it to the next musaQ to go to 43. I wish those who had come before me had told me this.
My current school in SA is better, though it took me some months to comprehend what had happened and sort my finances before I went back to flying. I got my PPL and am hoping to get a CPL in future. It's obviously harder now that i have to cough up the dough but i think i'll manage in the end. Part of the difference is that the school treats me as a client and i feel appreciated plus i got more confident since am not subject to wild swings. They respect me as compared to 43 where I was just another Company statistic. The boys at 43 infact bragged of only being answerable to the company and believe me, you are at their mercy. If I may describe my last flight at 43 :
... it was like being dragged on your feet, put on the pilot seat with a gun pointed to your head and told to fly with the big boy on the other seat ....
Because for them to send you back, they must show that it was in the opinion of the big guy that you cant fly so your last flight has to be with him. So the report is crafted with supporting figures - never mind that the flight file is conveniently put away.
So you get to fly terrified and on the debrief they can write anything, who cares it is their word against yours and in any case you are labeled problematic and so any denials later should be seen in that light.
So why fly in the first place on that state of mind? Do you have a choice, if you walk away you might as well kiss your sponsorship goodbye. If you'd been a private student you'd just take a walk, take your cash elsewhere - guess that's why private students have it easier comparatively. A Company sponsored chap is stuck with them so you cant just walk away. And since you've been singled out it is 'apparent that only you are having problems' - age old method of divide and conquer.
Guys focus. Two wrongs indeed do not make a right. If we have the chance to correct what's happening now we should. We owe it to the next musaQ to go to 43. I wish those who had come before me had told me this.
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suitcaseman,
thank you for your genuine concern and wishing well despite your problems. That shows character - maybe it would have been more convenient for you to maybe sigh 'serves him right' but you are man enough to stand by your belief. I hope you get to sort out your problems too.
Fluffyfan,
On defining racism you get it right. Therefore are we right to conclude that the chaps at 43 would indeed be racist since they believe the blacks should take longer to master flying.
Tough one there?
thank you for your genuine concern and wishing well despite your problems. That shows character - maybe it would have been more convenient for you to maybe sigh 'serves him right' but you are man enough to stand by your belief. I hope you get to sort out your problems too.
Fluffyfan,
On defining racism you get it right. Therefore are we right to conclude that the chaps at 43 would indeed be racist since they believe the blacks should take longer to master flying.
Tough one there?