43 Air School for a Kenyan

[Lex44]

Am confused!

IRP,
'The fact that i did get it first time' and then you go ahead and say you rewrote it. Which is which?
I applaud you moving on. But you have come back to question the 'murky' reputation of state depts. That i applaud too. Just because you moved on doesnt mean you shouldnt raise a red flag to warn those that come after you. The onus is on you to correct what you deem unfair. Racism should be judged in that light too - something unfair (take away the emotions)
Thank you for helping me rest my case too!!

[I.R.PIRATE]

Just a typo there Lex, sorry, I meant DIDNT
I dont think one can fix what is "unfair" in africa...I think you know that too...

[Lex44]

Unconfused!

Error duly noted. Officialy 'unconfused'.

We can change what's unfair in Africa in little steps if need be. What happened to mq is unfortunate.The poor lad was visibly shaken, caught in a crossfire far from home in a 'fight' he had no part in. I feel his pain. And to be subjected to mockery and insults in this forum is rather unsettling.

Adieus.

[4HolerPoler]

Lex - your posts are going the same way ug's - no more aviation and more whinging, racially centered bleating. This is an aviation forum.

I don't need to say any more.

4HP

[musaQ]

For the umpteenth time I would like to correct the notion that crying racism justifies anything.

"have any successful Kenyan students accused 43 of racism?"
Yes other students coming out successfully have cried racism plus a horde of other ills. Kenya is a closed culture and a person being picked on because of the colour of their skin is something new to many. Yes we hear about it but we don’t experience it. If others are conditioned to it, believe me a Kenyan will spot it the first time. I wouldn’t want to put words in their mouths so their input in this forum will definitely come in handy.

Kenyans at 43 constitute less than 15% of the population but unfortunately account for the majority of the wash outs (in excess of 70%). The numbers speak volumes and stereotypes have arisen because of it – Kenyans can’t fly that good in the formative stages to Kenyans should take longer to get their PPL and all kind of demeaning statements which only help to perpetuate bias.

On another score the students used to complain to the company but them being hundreds of miles away you can only do so much. So they Call for a meeting with the chaps for an honest exchange. What happens? The students are afraid of being victimized and the school doesn’t make it any easier. In the meeting when a student rises to speak, the response from the chaps is like - ‘seems we don’t have a problem with you, next please’. This only works to disenfranchise the students and singles out the ‘problematic students’. If I don’t have ‘problems’ my concerns shouldn’t be addressed? Needless to say the meeting had to be held for a second time because the first time the students chickened out.

Like I said before I never doubted my flying skills. Flying is a passion once you start you don’t want to stop. I had many PIC hours from 43 and I enjoyed every one of them.
Walking out of that gate I knew it hadn’t worked out not because of lack of skill but because of high handedness.

" When you where washed your sponsor should have been present and/or held an “exit” interview with you. Did your sponsor explain the reasons you where found to be unfit to continue their training program and did you inform them of your troubles at 43?"
The sponsor usually doesnt have much to work on for washed students -just an opinion drafted from the school (biased of course). The main thing was always missing. The training file that every student has that records all his flights and comments on them.
Leaving school, the story is: only the company can request for it and on reaching the company the school claims it is a confidential file that is a property of the school. Any justice in that? Surely a crucial file as that should be provided to the sponsor to explain the wash out.

The forum should open debate on what guidelines exist for washing and shouldn’t they be known to both parties?

Happy flying everyone and have a truthful day.

[UnDies]

Enough

For F Sake - lets bin this thread - MusaQ, get over it!! Everything happens for a reason mate! You`re starting to make a fool of yourself -
4HolerPoler please bin this thread!!

[mkenya]

Intro lecture at 43

I happened to have passed through 43 air school. and the only other time I felt that worthless was when I had just joined high school and was bullied alot.
In the introductory lecture we were told that 40% of us wouldn't make it through the training. Apparently the ground school would wash off most of us ( 26 successful applicants out of the 15,000 that applied.. all the applicants had a mean of B+ and above!!!!, the selection process consisted of an aptitude test administered by the airforce, and a psychometric test whereby the psycho motor skills of the applicants were compared to those of the best pilots!!!!)
Alas!!! We didn't have to wait till ground school by the time we got our PPLs most of us we down the drain, that is around 27% of us.... which one of the directors commented was a very good pass rate. the ones before us had a failure rate of more than 50%
Interestingly, in the ground school CAA comm exams our class recorded the highest pass rate ever! we had a mean of 93% for a class of more than 20. Of the whole group, only two dropped a paper each and all the papers were done in one sitting...
Afterwards, the comments were that kenyans can only pass exams, but not fly.

[theBOSS]

Well done on your classes mean % at the CAA sitting!! What was the class % when you guys wrote PPL at 43? Just curious?

[Vref +10]

Boring

We don't need this Just BIN THIS THREAD please
DAMMIT

[oerlikon]

enough already

What an irritating thread, made more so by the amount of replies it has recieved (yes I know I am just adding another one).

MusaQ, one of the lessons I learn't early on in aviation as well as in life is that you will be faced by many trials. If you can't get past it then you will remain in a rut. You need to grow up, rise above the situation and get on with your life and your career.

This issue with regards to your treatment at 43 should be taken up with the correct authorities, in this case your sponsors. I doubt very much that they would happily write off the money they have already invested in you without questioning your wash-out from 43. I also believe they have a moral obligation to investigate your allegations. Have they done so at all or are they content with the status quo? You have a right to demand an explanation from them, if they are prepared to listen to you.

I also doubt that other airlines would send cadets to 43 if such conditions existed and was a policy of the school.

However, it is very possible you encountered racialistic undertones, from an individual or individuals. Those sort of people will always exist in society and when the descrimination is not across the colour bar it is called tribalism, of which I am sure you are more familiar. My advice once again is to put it behind you and enjoy the company of fellow pilots who accept you for what you have achieved and who you are.

If, at this point you are still unhappy, I suggest you contact Carte Blanche, it is the kind of expose' they would love to sink their teeth into and I am sure it will put an end to the rumours, allegations, and insinuations and, as you said, speak the truth.

And as for Mkenya, I hope the simulator training is going well.

[Lex44]

Duly noted.

The thread has been an eye opener for me. I have learnt a lot and I've tried to give all in my 2 cents worth.

Our industry needs well trained pilots at peace with themselves. Pilots face similar challenges as all other folks and this thread provides that interaction. Pilots are world citizens and so bias should be beyond us.

orlikon - the sacarsm is duly noted about the vacancies.

[musaQ]

It's common knowledge that flying is not everyones cup of tea. I can not condone mediocrity and safety should be the number one priority of any flying school. I wont vouch for you if you cant hack it. If you can, you deserve all the support. Psychological factors also play a part in our flying - we all know that all too well. One's state of mind at a flying institution affects his flying by extension. Nobody can achieve his potential by intimidation.
Graduates should look back at their alma-mater with pride not shame. If not, something is/was amiss.
50% wash out is too high for candidates who pass through so much 'tests' to clinch a sponsorship.

I agree - every aviator has undergone trouble to get where they are. Some are part of the job and some are unneccessary. This forum gives us the chance to share that. Let's approach this with open minds and dont lose our heads. Does the industry train 'natural aviators'? Surely there's a base limit for all aviators.
As aviators in the indstry we can set the base limits for others to learn from. Let's carry out a healthy debate. Shall we?

oerilkon,
Please remove the last sentence of your post. It paints you in very bad light.
Now you get my point that some things dont have to be said outrightly but you can always get the drift. Subtle hints!
4HP Please.

[oerlikon]

musaq (and mkenya for this paragraph). Both of you refer to the drop out rate of cadets during training. It would seem that you feel because you have already been pre-selected to attend the school you should automatically be passed. In every selection process throughout the world the premiss is that those who have been pre-selected are those most likely to succeed, not gauranteed to succeed. Is that clear? The drop-out rate is generally high at schools or training institutions where a high standard for the finished product is expected. Just remember, those who are paying for their own training do not have the same constraints placed upon them as a sponsored student. They have the luxury of taking as long as they like until their money runs out. You, however, have the luxury of not having to worry about finances, but your responsibility is to your sponsors. Sometimes this means putting personal feelings aside (and I will not say that's easy), and get on with the job in hand.

Your sponsor invests money in you and expects that that money will not be wasted. Once again: Have you approached your sponsors to investigate this matter? It would be remiss of them to turn a blind eye to your allegations and still send cadets to the school. I cannot believe they would continue in a business relationship with the school if they were unhappy.

Now, as for that file you mentioned? Is that the pilot training file that your instructor fills out after every lesson and that you are supposed to countersign? You should know full well what is written in that file. I imagine, that legally speaking, the sponsors are the owners of that file because they have paid for your training at the school. When you decided to continue training on your own did you not ask for a copy of that file so that the next flight school would know how far you had progressed?

It would have been very unreasonable of them not give you a copy of that file.

[cavortingcheetah]

It might be an idea for someone south of the green and greasy to contact the shool and inform them of this controversy raging on Pprune.
Mind you though, it is somewhat hard to imagine that they are not already aware of the fact that their training philosophy has been called in to question and so possibly the 43rd has already decided not to become involved in this debate of a rather tricky nature.
The problem arises, of course, outside ZA in particular. When asked to recommend a school in South Africa for flying training or hour building or whatever; does one now, in possession of such scant information, put 43rd's name forward with the proviso that it is really a white man's flying school, so it might not suit you, old bean - or what?
A certain degree of clarification is required here and this can only come from the school itself, notwithstanding the fact that a student's flight record is entirely a private matter.

[musaQ]

Open debate

oerlikon,
Thank you for taking down the line. I can only hope it was an accidental oversight.

... pre-selected are those most likely to succeed, not gauranteed to succeed...

Well put.
Like I said earlier, I wont vouch for you if you cant hack it and if you can you need all the support not intimidation. In the case in point the selection criteria for the 'pre-selected' should be above board to leave no doubt in anyones mind that it is in the interest of all parties involved and all walk away happy. Dont leave trails of bias by keeping a training file as 'confidential' and singling out 'problematic students' to bash them further and not help them..... the list is long!

Like I said in an earlier post 'high standards' of an institution are judged by the quality of output not the percentage of wash out (The two may be argued to be correlated but such high percentages are seen down the chain before 'pre-selection'). Work with what you have to produce quality and wash if neccessary but dont wash to intimidate or pretend to enforce high standards.

And at what stage should one be washed? Definetely not months into the flying programme.Flying abilities cannot be unlearned along the way, or can they?. Kenyans at 43 first fight the wash out then REALLY learn to fly after that. It's a sorry state but that's how the cookie crumbles.
A simple law of averages tells you that if the wash out for a particular group is this much then another group's wash rate should match or be close (not NIL) - no pun intended. The assumption here is that all airlines would want its pilots to be of [almost] the similar 'high standards'.

What are the intentions of a school that tells you 40% would be washed. Do they intend to teach flying or first find the 40% and then take it on from there? What cuts and how are the aviator-wannabes coping during this stage?

I cannot believe they would continue in a business relationship with the school if they were unhappy.

I cant claim to speak for the company but PPRuNe is always open and future groups, if any, will be kind enough to let us know - word does get around. They wil also benefit from the discussions herein. All I can say is that the "happy relationship" has been threatened before and 'smoothed out', - or so we thought.

You describe the file in question well and are right on the score:

It would have been very unreasonable of them not give you a copy of that file.

Well... guess what? The file is NOT released. It should come in handy when you are explaining to your sponsor why you 'flanked'. It beats logic why it is claimed to be 'confidential' by the school yet you had access to it during your training and you countersigned the lessons. The reconcilliation of the file and the drafted report would make an interesting reading. A washed student simply trotters back home with a report(biased) which you have no defence against. The sponsor wouldnt want to argue with a 'professional opinion' now would he?

Maybe this forum could create a "PPRuNe test" along the way. A healthy debate would suffice.

[oerlikon]

aha

I am not legally trained, musaQ, but I do believe you have a right to a copy of your training file, if not to use as ammunition against the school, then at least for use in furthering your aviation career (as I stated previously, any school you join will need to have a record of what you have done so far). If the school is not willing to furnish you with a copy of the file then perhaps you should consider legal means of attaining it. ( Have a look at www.sahrc.org.za with reference to PAIA, the Promotion of Access to Information Act 2 of 2000, makes for interesting reading in your case)

With regards to wash-out. Is it not possible that the sponsors send a number (lets say twenty for example) of cadets to the school, with the aim of getting a percentage (lets say 10 in number) of qualified pilots out.
They have set a target of pilots they require and an associated budget to finance those pilots. The money spent on training those pilots is an investment that they will one day hope to get a return on. They will most likely, then, only invest in the top percentage of the cadets at the school. It is business, after all. That then leaves those who fall outside of the percentage required by the sponsor. Unfortunately they are told to leave.
If there is such a business deal between your sponsor and the school, then it appears you have been caught on the unfortunate side of the percentage line.

Now, having said that, it does not mean your abilities are any less than those who were in fact advanced by the school. A flying career is, hopefully, a lengthy undertaking. There are pilots who get accepted for airlines, with thousands of hours of flying, but who fail to make the grade and are washed on line check-rides. You may have had a slow start to your career, but it is not the end of it, you need to build on what you have achieved so far. People will respect you more for that than for complaining on how unfair you feel you have been treated.

And by no means am I saying you should look the other way if you feel you have been exposed to racism at the school. Hand the matter over to people who are in a better position to deal with it, such as the public media, who are not personally involved but can give an objective insight into the matter.

Consider your career like a runway. Its more important what's available in front of you than what's left behind you.

[theBOSS]

Okes bin it. Cant believe how worked up you okes get,because some Kenyan believes SA or 43 has nailed him!! screw this oke,actually **** him.maybe he should go to a school in the US,lets see if he makes it then. ill put my $100 on it!!

[Lex44]

My two cents worth:

The file situation seems to have been exhausted. May I reccommend a rule to guide future PPRuNers who may be drawn to this thread to 'learn' from it.

1. A student's training file should be released to the student failure to which the student is obligated to contact SAHRC for its release. The first Act passes the P-test and if the second act is needed to enforce the first, the concerned has failed the P-test.

About the high standards for the sponsored students(Airline). I think separate set of instructors should be assigned to them. I hear there's a JAA programme at 43 and these students have their own set of instructors. I also hear the students of european descent have not suffered a wash out. Commendable but maybe the set of instructors is doing the trick.
For the Airline students to have similar instructors as others but be subjected to higher standards is a catch 22. Consider two students under the same instructor - one airline, the other private - who are obviously taught the same (I presume). If they go for a stage check do we need to apply higher standards for the Airline guy to pass him/her. It wont make sense since they share an instructor. There's my PPRuNe test number two:

2. Airline students under higher standards need higher standard instruction and if this can be secured through assignment of a set of dedicated instructors then be it. The P-test is passed if this is applied in totality.

More tests?

theBOSS - civil debate please. mQ might be the driver of your 'bird acquisition' for all you know. You wouldnt want to p**s of your P1 now would you?

[musaQ]

oerlikon - Thanks for the legal advice. Too bad I didnt get a copy of MY file. If i had the info then, maybe ....
They can keep it now for all I care - for my stage my log book served me well with the stamps. I still would have relished the 'ammunition' - as you call it - to clear the air and move on with a clear conscience.
About the sponsor requiring a certain percentage of cadets it sponsors, I can say with confidence that that is not the case. Why give the impression to a group that no matter how hard they try half of them wouldnt make the cut. They might as well not try at all and wait until the cut is made since half are 'assured'. I believe there's a minimum base for all aviators.
My experience was of utter shock at flimsy grounds for picking on a cadet.

By no way am I complaining, just giving the next guy information to help him along. PPRuNe is a good start as it enjoys the opinion of fellow aviators.

Nice idea Lex'.

theB - get a life, your money would be better spent on those you've ** it from. Go boss someone else around!

[Lex44]

Many a student has been washed on the backdrop of many 'tutors' intentionally set up or otherwise. Who taught you that? Instructor no. X
Here goes,

3. Upto 2 instructors for a pre-PPL is ok. 3 is bearable but past that has ramifications for a student's learning curve. My advice dont let it run that far. That's a set up.

Happy landings.