JG1

Divinehover - you said "SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). Nationwide is also intercontinental, if thats what you mean, plenty of cross-border, hence international carriers in SA.We fly further, longer, Plenty of domestic pilots in SA would like a change and fly long-haul.in bigger, more advanced aircraft Plenty of them would take a pay cut to fly better equipment, too. And plenty would prefer staying in five-star hotels in civilised places like Paris and London rather than African hotels in Livingstone or Luanda.than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. Plenty of locals with the required experience would do an SAA pilots job for nearly half the SAA salary. Plenty of new RDP pilots at SAA with far less experience than a lot of the local guys. As for the 'difficulty in replacing big jet pilots, break out of your SAA 15-years-to-command mindset and look north to Europe and the ME to see how easily it is done. I fly a big jet and probably have less hours than a lot of Fluffy pilots in SA.

PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.Not surprised at all

TooBadSoSad

DJ, when you say how can there be a revised schedule if the consultants from Seabury are still busy analysing the entire operation. Additionally, my understanding is that the consultants will be presenting their report on the B744 fleet to the board on the 4th of April, so taking the above two points into consideration I don't see how you can conclusively say the fleet will be exited?? However, my gut feel is that the B744 is on its way out.

Avi8tor

I think the thread has gone wild!!! This is not to bash SAA or my many friends there!!!!

This is about getting a healthy long term future for the industry. SAA needs to be made profitable and privatised. Same for SAX and Mango. We need a level playing field.

Once that happens, the strongest business model will win out. There will be some pain to start with, but it will lead to more jobs and better average salaries for all, long term.

I am have to laugh at the group that think, as pilots, we are gods. That they deserve a huge tax payer subsidise salary and everybody else needs to take the cut to made SAA profitable.

Sorry guys, its gotta be cuts top to bottom. The airline will go broke whoever goes on strike, check-in staff, cabin or pilots. And my I remind u that there are loads of ppl waiting to take the jobs.

fluffyfan

JG1 OK JG1 I will pass it on to management just PM me your details I am sure you will get a A340 command as soon as they learn you are out there, how shortsighted of SAA not to have you on the payrole, who needs a seniority list its just a pain to the company I mean why make someone like you with your obvious flying skill sit behind some old fart who has been flying around the world for the last 15 years, unfair I tell you.

DJ the consultants are probably the best thing to happen to SAA in a very long time, it seems they are here to see the implimentation of some of the ideas as well, not just recommend, and yes hard decisions will have to be made, the unions will go beserk....but if thats the way it has to be, so be it, the pilot body has been asking for this kind of thing for a long time we just want a healthy profitable SAA and a future we can look forward to, in retrospect I can see what you were saying that the fleets might shrink initially, as long as when/if we become profitable they see the obvious need to expand again, thats if we want to compete and be a global player, everyone else is expanding so best we dont miss the boat.

CJ750

It is amazing how this thread has wound its way through various subjects and how many airline managers we have participating. Why don't you all walk in and take over. SAA will always take flak being the airline around which South African Aviation revolves which ever way you try and look at it. Why does Fluffyfan get his back up so quickly.

I agree there are many more problems that we all pretend to know about but don't slag somebody who is offering an opinion/suggestion when you are not a manager yourself. This gives everyone especially the SAA PILOT HATERS guild a push. Are SAA pilot salaries not a cost to the airline however small/big they are.

Give the process a chance and see what comes about . Nobody likes to see pilots out of work but when you start saying airline pilots are the only professional pilots around then i start to worry. Certain contributions certainly give me the impression that SAA pilots are the only pilots that are good enough and any one else is lower than shark sh... and should not be contributing to this discussion. Everyone is free to offer an opinion but certain guys on this thread think that if you don't work for SAA then you don't have a brain.

Guys lets wait and see but unfortunately AFRICA has a reputation , and this looks like it is following suit. NEGATIVITY> See previous thread on this forum.

Frogman1484

JGI...you are over paid for what you do because I know people that will do your job for nothing just to get experiance...does that mean you are over paid.

beechbum

Found this on the other forum...........

fluffyfan

CJ750 sorry to hear of your distress, but please tell me you dont suscribe to JG1's point of view, it sounds like he is advocating that we fire half the pilots at SAA because they are horribly overpaid, the solution is to hire young guys like himself who are willing to work for a third of the salary, I mean as Avi8tor said
What clever solutions, best we let British Airways/Quantas/United/Delta/American/Lufthansa/Air New Zealand/Cathay , know of the obvious way out to high pilot slaries.

I am really not going to discuss the seniority list system, but it should be fairly self explainatory why young guys are getting comands early in Europe and the middle East, not because Airlines have discovered that you dont need to wait a long time for command, but because there such an incredible shortage of pilots especialy experienced pilots over there.

JG1 you are an asset to your company VB must have a little chuckle every time he is buying a new sports car or when he is having a drink on the balcony of his mansion, he must be extreamly happy he has guys like you in the company, no labour problems, you must think the Nationwide salaries are quite adequate, how did you get in did you stand at the Nationwide HQ with a sign saying "Will Fly For Food"?

(sorry 4HP I know I am on the verge of getting the boot but could not help it)

Frogman1484

The problem with SAA is that it has not grown like the rest of the airlines in the world. Why do you think CX EK QF etc are all buying more hardware. Cx has to expand at 7-8% per year to maintain the profit it has got used to EK is the same.

I say sack the top leadership for incompetence and get proper airline people to fix it...no Andrews please.

nugpot

Come-on Frogman. Do you seriously believe that a 747 sim costs more to operate than a 737 sim? The base training might be more expensive, but hell, it only happens once.
Maybe SubsonicMortal because that is a hell of a lot of money........
Its no myth fluffy, and don't tempt me to post your scales.
Like I said before. I don't believe that anything will be solved by making SAA pilots take a paycut (except maybe wind in their collective overconfident necks (just joking - many mates there)). The problems at SAA goes way beyond what they pay their pilots. The one thing is true. If SAA salaries are drastically reduced, they will need to train a lot of pilots to replace their experienced crew who WILL leave for more money. That would cost a packet.
My final plea to the SAA drivers. Don't try to justify your salaries. Take your money and buy your Porsches and just keep quiet about it. It solves nothing to get into an argument about how awesome you are and how SAA recognised this from a CV and invited you to an interview. I also know that your dad/uncle/brother/SAAF mate had nothing to do with this. The guys I know in SAA are the usual mix. 99% great guys and 1% completely useless idiots - same as in my current airline.
A word of warning to the SAA doom-prophets. If SAA folded, there would suddenly be 800 highly experienced pilots on the market and you would be stuck in your current job for a long, long time.

Shrike200

Nicely put Nugpot - good comments. R80K per month? Thats DOUBLE what a senior Nationwide Captain earns, just for example. Nationwide being the 'low' side of the equation of course. And, when you look at it (on the domestic side at least), a Nationwide Captain does the same *kind* of work (just more of it, in older aircraft - I hear they're quite quick with the QRH )

It's the comments like: "They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has." that bug me. It achieves nothing other than to piss other people off. If you've got nothing to add (other than how legendary you feel you are), then rather leave it I reckon.

Besides the salary sidetrack, and back to the topic, is there some kind of time-frame for this 'freeze'? Or is it indefinite at the moment?

beechbum

I suppose as long as it takes the consultants to undertake their findings within the airline. I've heard stories that they'll be here for around 2-3 months. So with that in mind and if any form of go ahead is given to unfreeze the recruitment then that's what we'll be looking at!!!!!!!!!!!
And unfortunatley we'll always get those arrogant individuals who think that they're the only ones allowed into the hallowed halls of aviation........the word skygod springs to mind here!!! Shame!!! So be it!
Who knows maybe he calls himself Figjam..... F k I'm good, just ask me!!

Back to the topic................................

fluffyfan

Oh dear back to the salary argument, firstly let me just state that everyone at SAA was where you guys are now, many ex Nationwide, SAX, Airlink etc pilots working for SAA, and I myself was a SAA hater, Skygods, arrogant etc, the tune does change when you get in understandably so.
I simply dont see why people working for other airlines feel the need to comment on the SAA pilots salaries, I am sure it is hurting SAA management, if we were paid half the amount we are getting now it would also hurt management, thats because they cannot run the company properly, the SAA salaries are but a drop in the ocean of the airline expenses but I am sure managemnet would love to cut them and blame the pilots for all there woes, unfortunatley for them that is not the case. The salaries are part of the equation that they have to manage, you need pilots to fly aircraft, could you imagine if SAA went to Boeing and said those lease costs are ridiculous, we dont care if its what everone else pays to lease an aircraft it just ridiculous and we are cutting the lease payments by 30%.........Boeing would give SAA a fat toffee

Yes 80k per month is a whole lot of money and I wish I was getting that but I am not far enough up the seniority list yet, the salaries of pilots at SAA was not always good, not too long ago it was horrible, however it has taken lots of time and negotiation and legal expenses to get where the salaries are today, 80k a month is alot, but my neighbour who has been out of varsity for 3 years and is a SAP programmer takes home in excess of 50k per month (takes home) so he is paid approx 90k per month.... Part of the parity agreement (and we do not have parity by the way) is to consider equvalent positions outside of the airline, and its a huge complicated formula.

SAA guys are paid well, but is it too much or are the rest of the airline guys in SA paid to little? the only reason SAA salaries are where they are, is that the pilots at SAA have stood together with 100% membership to the union and demanded a fair wage. Nationwide and others are ripping there pilots off they are exploiting you because they know they can, because you do not stand together and will do nothing but maybe grumble to yourselves a little.

Thats it I will comment no more on the salaries, I am done trying to make you guys understand, as I have said in numerous posts above, most of the pilots I have spoken to would take a pay cut if it was necessary, but pilot salaries are not responsible for the woes of the company. The SAA pilots are not horrible greedy individules who all drive Porsches (I drive a Tazz by the way), we are just like the rest of you, and nugpot we dont keep mentioning our salaries, it keeps coming up and attacked, why justify our salaries......because its worth justiflying we have worked long and hard to get what we have.

Frogman1484

Mate, 80 K a month is not enough!!! They pay more in India flying for Jet airways, and that is for a year 1 Captain.

And Yes believe it or not it does cost more to train a 400 pilot than a 737. To start the 400 sim is far come complex than the 737 and therefore costs a lot more to buy. The crew that are training the crews cost more and therefore your training as a whole costs more. Your base training will also cost more try 7-10 tones of fuel an hour for the 400 just for starters.

TooBadSoSad

SAA's B747-400 simulator is a zero flight time certified sim!! Therefore no base training is required.

sky waiter

Look,

All you guys bashing the national carrier- jealousy does make you nasty- i would love to get into to SAA but having said that any airline will do at this stage, in SA. Do i think the salaries are fair, yes! For whichever airline you get into- you signed the contract and you knew what you were going to earn before you got into it, everyone has every right to b*&^, i do too but at the end of the day its what you make of it, and the lucky ones are making alot of it. You just gotta try your best to join them or otherwise deal with your situation and try change it for the better....

As alot of people have said, if SAA retrench that spells big problems for all of us, especially now that the SA market is in the upswing, that would ruin it for everyone again, and possibly if everyone stood together at the other airlines maybe something would/could be done.

All i've ever wanted to do since day one was be an airline pilot- the salaries are alot better than most other flying jobs out there, plus most of the conditions are cushier too, so if someone anywhere would like to give up there position for me, please feel free,I'm not saying ill work for free i expect some sort of decent renumeration because im a qualified proffesional (apparently) but at least ill be at home more than now and ill do my best to shut up for a little while, but there are never any garuantees.

bianchi

Skywaiter,

You have summirized it all !!! Treat closed !

BIANCHI

Champagne Lover

SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, in bigger, more advanced aircraft than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. The pilots are one of the few things keeping SAA together. SAA pilot salaries whether high or low will not inpact on SAA's botton line. That's up to Mr Erwin and who of his friends he wants to run SAA.
PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Divinehover, look at your text. Maybe now you can understand when we taxi past you you we greet you with "Dag P..s"!
The line I fly for earns a lot less than most other lines. When I taxi past them, I give a genuine hello-there wave. But "Spoories" with their condescending, better-than-you attitude, you get the middle finger!
So you believe you have "better aviators" flying for you. Kak!
If we are sent every 6 months to the simulator we would be exactly the same!
Oh yes, your point: We do go every six months, you don't. So we are better honed. The fact is correct, certainly. But, if you were privatized, there would no longer be every 6 months etc etc......you would have to make do like the rest of us MORTALS!
You use SITA, wow! Does Uncle Alec know what that costs?.......
The HUD systems........we can land when you can't. Is that the argument? Oh, do you mind refreshing our short memories about how professional you are, the George approaches, unlocked reversers, go around next to the runway etc.
The legions of aero planes SAA have lost over the years. Oh yes, it's not your fault! Sorry!! We knew what was on board but still went! We didn't know about the flap speeds, and it was night anyway....etc etc...... But compare us to X! We do..... to the Australian NATIONAL carrier. Bench-Mark in safety, for you anyway. Sum total of accidents: when she parked the nose of the 400 in the golf course......
We get paid more because we are the standard in the country.
What can I say?
I SEE NO REASON FOR A BLOODY FLAG CARRIER! Never have either.
The sum total of government involvement in commercial aviation should only be the ATNS and CAA. Intervene to guarantee that South Africans get the correct amount of slots. Stay out of commercial aviation as such! Concern yourself with "Brown-Aero planes", and leave the commercial stuff to the entrepreneurs!

CXtreme

The timing for restructuring is perfect. Get them fit and in shape for the World Cup 2010. I get the feeling this is their last chance. If they don’t post huge profit in 2010 /2011 I am afraid there is no place for them in this ever increasingly global game.

Now let me go downtown and spend my profit share.
Hope to see the normal S.A.A. crowd at the Hong Kong seven’s next week and hear their take after a LOT of Heineken.

CXtreme

P.S. At a Fleet Forum last week the D.F.O. said he was aiming at 50 B744 freighters as they can use them like yesterday. There is a couple of ex S.A.A. 400’s flying with CX already, and they have their eye on the rest of the S.A.A. fleet. These aircraft are all well maintained and have some nice bells and whistles.
The problem? Cannot train crew fast enough!!