fluffyfan

ok well good luck with that one.

let me ask you Avi8tor what do SAA pilots earn? do you know or do you think you know? what should they earn? same as Nationwide, same as Comair? would you then be happy, what is the story surrounding SAA pilots salaries, what is parity? how is it worked out? who worked it out? do SAA pilots even have Parity? if you can answer these questions you will come to your own conclusion, there is a big myth out there that SAA pilots earn huge salaries, its simply not the case, just get the facts.

I am also a tax payer mate, but I have a lot more riding on SAA's future than you do more, I have not met one pilot who would not agree to having his salary cut if that meant SAA would survive, however as I have said that is really not the problem, the problems are way deeper and they need to fix those problems first as the pilot group has been saying for decades.

beechbum

Strange that the slanging match has to revert to SAA pilots salaries. As previous posters have stated, nothing to do with why recruitment at SAA has been put on hold. So guys get over it!!! Realistically the airline is overstaffed, more personnel per aircraft than probably any other airline in the world, this ranges from check in staff right up to senior managers! This is where the trimming has to start....will it be done?.....ummmm anyones guess! But to state that SAA crew get overpaid, it's more a case of certain others under pay their pilots. So be it!
....hey me too. But who the bloody hell cares. It's one of those things we unfortunately have to bare. Take it or leave it...I suppose. And it ain't going to change!
SAA has got to sort out its mess within the year, and try and get on an even keel. Sort out all the outdated contracts,(which amount to R273 million odd) bring managers in line and generally clean out the cobwebs that have been around many a year.
Unforunately it won't be an easy task, unions will be jumping up and down, certain peepol will be toy toying in the streets, strikes, fights and other things.
- I've heard the same, amongst other airlines. So maybe a slight glimmer of hope here!

divinehover

SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, in bigger, more advanced aircraft than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. The pilots are one of the few things keeping SAA together. SAA pilot salaries whether high or low will not inpact on SAA's botton line. That's up to Mr Erwin and who of his friends he wants to run SAA.

PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.

Kernel

And Nationwide don't fly long-haul, advanced aircraft on international routes? I thought not...but of course when working for SAA why think about anything else except your own little world?

beechbum

Pprune members...........request!!!!
Just a question since we are all "professional" pilots here, why is it that everyone tends to slag off SAA pilots? C'mon guys what is it? Professional jealousy? Fancy equipment, fancy salaries? I know this is off topic but when we're all discussing SAA recruitment and the slagging starts man it makes me ashamed to be amongst the so called professional individuals on this forum.
I get to hear it every day in fact....listen to that SAA guy on the radio.... ....ag..bloody tax payer this tax payer that!! What for? I dunno 'cos it's kinda childish don't you think!

The whale is bleeding so hopefully our national carrier and "our" colleagues can come out of this turmoil in one piece! Leave the SAA pilot/salary slagging to another day.
Kinda boring............ yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fluffyfan

Ok back to the post.

Yes all new recruitments are on hold, not cancelled just on hold, unlike DJ suggests I think SAA is going into a phase of expansion, more aircraft and hence more aircrew required.

SAA is 70-80 (figures vary) pilots short already, now with a little luck the over 60's agreement will fall away soon due to a number of reasons, which I will not go into here due to it being a very sensitive subject, so SAA will be short of crew, I am sure the consultants will see this and make appropropriate suggestions.

JG1 dont bother applying as you obviously have no interest in flying for SAA

SubsonicMortal

I'm not usually one to contribute to threads but JG1's constant hacking at overpaid SAA pilots is starting to really p!$$ me off. SAA pilots are well paid and so they should be. Most of the pilot body have been with the copany for over a couple decades which equates to a fair amount of experience. Airline pilots are professionals, in the same likes as surgeons, engineers and other field specialists of various other professions. Why should a 30-year service captain be happy with taking R80K home a month? Look at what other major international arilines are paying their crew and then stop whinging about the fact that you could never make it to the interview.

Drop the salaries and you will see pilots starting to leave for higher paid jobs elsewhere. The crisis-management solution will be to hire contracted guys from Parc and the like who will obviouly not have the best interest for the company at heart. 10 SAA pilot's alone could save the company more money in reduced fuel burn than the 3000 excess workers who sit at their desk, picking their noses while trying to figure out what solitair is all about. Eisshhhh...

Oh and BTW, I am not an SAA jockey. I was once a wannabe but thanks to the fair BEE system, am forced to fly for an airline north of the Limpopo. I still get excited like a little boy when flying accross the Indian ocean on a dark night and in the distance can hear "Springbok" calling Bombay HF. I look at my captain and say, "isn't that an awesome callsign, It's from my national carrier."

Deskjocky

Fluffy. You might not like what I have to say and that’s fine- reality is that SAA is up the creek and the paddle is floating away. Why we are where we are is a function of a number of things- and no Im not one who subscribes to getting the pilots-or anyone else for that matter …well maybe Khaya - to take a pay cut because that’s not where the problem really lies. The issues are fundamental and if not addressed this business will continue to burn cash at the rate its been doing. Capital reserves have been wiped out, decisions are taken by the wrong people on the basis of flawed strategy- this needs to change.

Right now the priority is to stem the flow of cash out the business- this encompasses recruitment, contracts (including leases) etc. Your answer to everything is to grow- fly more places, get more aircraft. Problem is what’s the point if your business is not in a position to leverage that growth? Size has no relation to profitability. If the submission to the board on the fleet is approved then there will be a reduction the number of aircraft operated- yes this means there are one or two routes that now hang in the balance, however the effects will be minimized by increasing utilization on the remaining aircraft to a point. No crew will be out of work as the increased utilization on the remaining fleet will absorb them.

Once we move the business out of the ICU unit and prove to DPE that the balance sheet is looking better AND the performance is sustainable- then they will provide the 4bil recap. If the DPE’s conditions are not met then no money and no SAA. Simple.

So many questions on Mango, which clearly you believe to be the root of all evil. Despite your feelings, SAA still owns Mango- the relationship the two companies have is in no way anti competitive- if it were I can assure you messers Novick, Orsmond, Bricknell would be bleating about it already. Why does Mango use Equity- well why does 1Time use them? why does Mango use SAT- well why does Comair use them for their 737’s? etc etc

As things stand right now Mango’s future seems pretty well set- can the same be said for SAA right now? It will be if we get this right- there is no choice.

madherb

That's a pretty dumb comment. Lots of pilots left Nationwide because of the poor salaries. SAA pilots are rational beings, one would hope, and not insensitive to the plight of others - maybe if you were in that situation, you would donate half your earnings to your underpaid colleagues............

Tropicalchief

Avi8tor,

Your taxes also pay for government administration from the president down. How are they doing with infrastructure and crime fighting these days? At least the SAA pilots get you to where you want to go, can't say the same about the governments efforts.

beechbum

DJ,
Wouldn't it be a good idea to offer the man at the top, who seems to have no clue anyway, some sort of incentive scheme. Hold the carrot in one hand and demand something from the other. After all we are dealing with someone who makes eternal excuses for his spendthrift attitude. Make it work or you can find another bed to lie around in, should be the motto.....I know it's not that easy but I'm afraid someone needs to be made accountable for such losses. Don't you think? Makes me wonder what Maria Ramos was thinking when appointing said CEO....job for the boys maybe?
I think it's finally about time we saw some movin and shakin!
Subsonicmortal have to agree with your post entirely.......!!! Well put!
Just a question DJ, with the expense of the 747-400's and the impending arrival of the A340's back from lease, could we see a quicker exit of the 74's. I believe the lease agreements are costing a bomb! What of the article on the A340-500's from Thai...any truth in the rumour?
Well lets hope the consultants come up with a lifesaver and ol' Khaya and his logic comes to the party.........finally!
Talking of party...have Mango management taken up Kululas' offer yet?

TooBadSoSad

JG1, PM me your real name and I will go and see if your CV is sitting on the top shelf in the flight deck crew recruitment room. Chances are it is!! By the way, that shelf is labelled something like "Not suitable - Do not interview again".

And DJ, what's the real story about the B744 fleet being parked? How do you park a fleet on which you are making lease payments of around $1 million per a/c per month? I do agree with you that SAA will shrink in the short term. Hopefully less one KN and NM as well. My opinion is that senior government appointed management has really stuffed up the airline!!

fluffyfan

DJ I agree completely, the source of the problem must be fixed, and the source is just plain simple bad management, the government needs to decide if SAA is a BEE social employment agency or a business, it seems they would like it to be a business they have made it quite clear thats what they want, so they must then cut the and run it like a business.

There really is no alternate than for SAA to exist, what are the options? lots of sabre rattling by government but contemplate the alternatives.

I do not have anything against Mango, I am glad its there to give the competition a run for there money but lets be honest the Mango balance sheet is not telling the true story and I am concerned that the true story might just be a nett loss, it helps nobody to hide the true operating costs, we will never know if its a success or not.

beechbum

Maybe the reason why it's not being brought out in the open, is that SAA could be/trying to fund the loss, maybe, and then scared that if truth prevails the anti competition board will be set alight with Comair and NTW trying to strike the first match.
This again would cost SAA more money and so the viscous circle continues.
DJ, I can see you're a Mango fan, so maybe shed just a little light and stop the rumour mongers......!!!! Just a thought!
Who knows....thing is we'll probably never know!

I.R.PIRATE

Reading through all of this I am strangely (being no lover of SAA) moved to say what I notice here. Instead of bashing SAA (which I too love)'s pilot salaries, we should be bashing the other local airlines to up the ante and pay competitive salaries. Unless everybody is paid their worth, there will always be someone who feels hard done by.

Must say that spoories drivers are a little quick to gloat, always dragging the whole employment envy out of the closet. Remember that guys at the other carriers didnt chose their salaries and type of hardware they operate, they are just trying to make an existance, like you. Albeit in a slightly less cushy environment.

Airline pilots should be standing together to raise the level of what is on offer here in SA, instead of the tiresome verbal masturbation contest we witness here daily.

Deskjocky

On the 345's that's total BS, we would like to go in another direction. Thai is trying to offload theirs and are trying to spice up the market a little.

744's...the proposal is going to be to park the whole lot- obviously there is an effort on the go to get rid of them but its probably safe to say we wont be able to offload all of them and so what doesn’t go will wined up looking at the fence in the technical area. The numbers are really against these machines, the revised schedule- without them in it, but still including their lease costs- saves us a few hundred million a year, its hard to justify keeping them on in the face of that. Its going to be a really sad day if the board agree’s…which they probably will, money is money.

To answer the question on Mango…..they are well ahead of their projections and are trading in the black. What’s interesting to note here is if a comparison is done on SAA’s domestic passenger numbers for February 06 vs Feb 07,there about a 4% growth- given the fact that Feb 06 also included GRJ which is not the case in Feb 07 this figure is all the more interesting. So if Mango is not hurting SAA then where are these pax coming from?

Frogman1484

Here is another angle about why pilots that are flying heavy metal get paid more. What does it cost in training to replace an FO or a Capt, in comparison to the salary , it is far more important to maintain a steady workforce than to have to retrain a new one every week...by the way we are talking about big jets not fluffies.

beechbum

Gee whiz....park the queen of the skies! Yikes that will be a sad day indeed!
Hopefully someone out there needs a few -400's as I and am sure a few others don't want to see them rot in the sunshine!
I know Oasis in HK is looking for a few......at a good price! But suppose that's another story!
So no A340-500's then. Wonder how that story came to light? Well lets hope the direction is a good one then...... like Boeing buying all of SAA's Airbuses and equipping the fleet with 777's and 787's ......even Virgin is going away from the 4 engines 4 longhaul! Yeeha......bring it on!
Now back to the recruitment on hold and slagging off the pilots' salaries bit...now where were we???????????

Deskjocky

Yes, heard that too, something for the future perhaps.

I tend to agree- not on the Boeings, but the 2 versus 4 debate......seems a long way off at this point...

Kernel

madherb, I was not referring to the salary situation between Nationwide and SAA. As was pointed in an earlier post pilots cannot afford to be picky or choosy over airline jobs in this country. The point I was trying to make is that SAA is not the only international carrier in this country (as Divinehover seems to think)

I have got nothing against SAA whatsoever, and like most pilots in this country (whether or not they will admit it) it's the company I'd ultimately like to fly for.

Nonetheless, thats my 2c, will now go back to being an observer