Afriviation

Ok let me help you here, the aircraft in SA are moatly flown by people of pale pigmentations. If all the aircraft in SA were leased from Europe they would all be flown by people of pale pigmentation. Most of the aircraft in this country are owned locally, some are dry leased from Europe and the rest of the world, then why can't most of the majority population groups of this country be seen flying these aircraft???

Christo

maybe you should follow your own advice and do the comprehension thing

beechbum

I see what you're getting at now. If you put it all in English then maybe I could have understood.
Therefore by the power of deduction then all German people will be driving German cars, French people.....French cars and so on and so forth.
Afriman your argument again stinks.......and again i'm afraid you're talking even more kAKthan ever before.
I can't believe that an educated individual like myself lowers himself to this pathetic banter.
May your cockpits be filled with happiness Afriman cos hell there ain't much here........

Afriviation

You are happy to harp about your Kenyan Friends and colleagues, i haven't heard you mention any of your South African black pilot friends, that's probably you don't have any because you hate them as they got it in a silver platter and they are a threat to you.

Lets face it, black people can work until blood comes out of their ears, but they don't stand a chance in hell in making it in the highly competitive circles of SA Avaition if government does not intervene.

Most of you probably know this that even in your own white circrles, for anyone to get somewhere you have to have some connections in the Company. look for example how many Father&Son/Daughter combinations you have at SAA, co-incidence yeah right.

What connections would an aspirant black pilot would have that would be thicker than blood?

Give me a break you all know that this is not all about hard work and earning your place, it's about connections, circles, favours etc. Blacks don't go to pubs with whities or invite them for potjiekoses at their homes. They have zilch chances of ever making those connections.

The only way to get blacks employed in Aviation, is through Government intervention PERIOD!!! And even that is still met with hard hitting opposition and criticism.

beechbum

Hey Afriman.....look at Birdladys' post about her attempted hi-jacking on the
N1.......makes you sick man. And you want us to embrace your feelings about equality. Get a life and go ut and preach to these jerks that want to ruin the lives of many for what? ....... a couple of grand.
Nou is ek kwaad!!!!!!

Pale_ZA_Male

I have had to register in order to reply to this thread. It is just too much to let it pass. Clearly I am a pale male and I have read with interest the various comments posted here.

South Africa needs to redress the imbalances of past. Miraculously we are here without a fight. Nevertheless the majority of population have aspirations and unfulfilled expectations. Without addressing these issues appropriately in the near future there certainly remains the possibility of this country becoming a Zimbabwe.

I am a landowner with a land claim on my property. The land claim exists as an attempt by government to address an issue in the past. I do not want to sell my property but the reality is without pale males making conscious and tangible efforts to address these aspirations then the whole country is at risk. I will negotiate to settle this claim by selling it on a 'willing buyer willing seller basis'. I do however expect a reasonable compensation.

Afriviation has a legitimate point. He is actually expressing it quite reasonably unlike some of the replies. The transformation he is wanting is not going to happen overnight. But unless there is a proactive and reasonable approach to include non pale males in this area of industry then it will never happen. A squeaky wheel gets oil. He's squeaking and we should at least offer some commitment to transform.

beechbum

Afriman....you may be right BUT you still have had to have proved yourself somewhere along the line in order that you may be recommended by someone in that particular company. It's the facts of life Afriman.....
As for your issue with blacks not going to pubs with the whities etc. I'm not surprised with the type of attitude you have. Again i reference the cadets I have flown with.....on numerous occasions we all went out together to several pubs etc.
I can't see your issue with this statement.......again i'm lowering my self.
Must get back on my pedestal where i belong and keep those natives who are revolting at bay!!!!!!
Ha now I've done it!!!
You're not beechjet in disguise are you?
Mysticflyer...............where are you?????

beechbum

As I have said pale ZA male on numerous occassions.... Rome was not built in a day.......but unfortunately Afriman wants everything to happen yesterday and we all now that is both unreasonable and unrealistic. In time we will see it change as it is what we hear through the corridors of power.....But like anything it takes time.
You see it's this type of thing that makes you realise what an arrogant, ignorant bafoon you really are. By using the word hate, Afriman, you have moved this posting from your side onto a totally different playing field. I actually pity you and feel sorry for the great crews that you will be flying with in the future for they will be subjected to your hateful ways!!!!
Some professional pilot you are. You should be stricken from the ranks........

Afriviation

Pale ZA Male well said, The issue is not about doing favours for the blacks it's about achievieng some equality across the board. You will never make everyone happy however what we have in SA is a formula for disaster, which is not being given the necessary attention it deserves. A lot can be said about similar situations in other spheres of our society, however I am limited by what I have observed right under my nose in Aviation. If this the kind of attitude our fellow white counterparts have adopted then it's sad for this country. We have made several strides to improve in many facets of our economy, but we cannot ignore the vast majority of the citizens of this country.

Again I'm no politician just a proud South African Aviator who aspires for equal opportunities for all aspirant Aviators of this country across all races.

Afriviation

When beechbum, in the 23rd century, well perhaps in SA aviation one needs to make noise now for it to happen then

saywhat

Ultimately, after reading the whole thread, I am still of the opinion that there is no fix to the problem. Affermative action (AA) is a reality in our country. Ones personal opinions about the validity of AA are only of intrest to those that hold them, as the actual decision has been made by the rulers of the nation, and for the forseeable future will not change. The problem lies in the fact that someone has to pay for AA to take place. SAA has a program in place, which I believe is a good one. I have met some of the black pilots that have come through the system, and I must say that I am generaly impressed with the standard.

If I was the owner of a small, or large aviation company in SA, I don't believe that I would sponsor a black pilot. Not because of race, but because it is a very expensive exercise, and the candidate would leave before I got any return on my investment. This is not to say that the candidate would be wrong to go, on the contrary, he would be foolish not to futher his career. The profit margin in the aviation industry is too small to expect the industry to pay for the training. (I'm talking charter / airline) The only funding that can take place to drive the idea of AA in aviation is Government (through the SAAF and SAA), and private individuals and companies who have vast quantities of spare money to spend on bursaries to students. Down side to this is that these individuals would rather sponsor a universaty graduate that they can later get their pound of flesh from.

So once again, I am the prophet of doom. There is no answer. IF there is, I will be the first to subscribe to it, as I was born in this country, I love this country and I will do anything in my power to assure that this country is as good to my children as it was and is to me!

Romeo E.T.

Afriman, tell us how long did it take you to get where to you are today in aviation? if some government official were per chance surfing this forum tonight and decided to take action tommorrow morning, without first starting a commision of enquiry and another commision and another and so on and so on, as per your progress time scale how long would it take to reach some kind of equality?, 3/4/5 years I would think.

And do you really believe that ranting and raving on this forum, getting it to grow to 5 pages in just one day is actually gonna make a difference?

The profile of people on this forum, and on pprune in general are not your captains of the industry ie Roger Foster/Vernon Bricknel/Piet van Hoven/whoever is currently running SAA/SAX. These people that can actually make the difference, they are probably not even that interested in pilot issues, more worried about yields, prices, profit margins, answering to shareholders, to them we are all just "workers" or "employee numbers".

You are just getting your fellow "workers" and colleages all worked up and resentment towards you but no solution will come out of this, we can all agree, disagree and comiserate with you but we cannot effect the changes.

Thus my call to you bring this issue that you so strongly feel about out into the open, go see your "congressman" and ask for an official enquiry to be launched, thats the only way that your frustrations can be addressed.

Then we will see what is really going on here!

Afriviation

beechbum is obviously an orthodox white supremist, the only dilemma I have is that the most progressive and succesful white people are the ones who tend to to understand the issues of diversity, equality and so forth, so where does that leave beechbum. he's probably a miserable whitie who was not fortunate enough to have his parents take full advantage of the status quo and make a fortune like most pale people. So you see beechbum you would be better off supporting my cause at least I would make sure that you at least get some recourse in this new dispensation.
You could move from the flying school and get a real job flying real aeroplanes.

Pale_ZA_Male

I manage a small business which is being driven by BEE requirements to become BEE. There is more to BEE than just selling shares, something that the shareholders are loathe to do. We have been focusing on employment equity, training, enterprise development etc. In our firm positions exist that should be filled by 'non pale' faces. However the reality of the situation is that there are insufficient educated and experienced black people (black, coloured, indian etc) to fill it. Those that we have appointed have needed a significant amount of mentoring and allowances have been made in their performance. Considering the transformation obstacles and issues I have encountered in a small company makes it easily understandable why transformation in a highly specialised industry such as aviation is taking so long.

There is also no mentoring in flying. You either qualify or you don't. However, a common thread amongst all pilots is that they are passionate about flying. It is not something peope do when all else fails. They are there because they want to be there and to get into it professionally takes years of building hours. Perhaps Afriaviation, your time frame needs to be extended and your delivery expectation reduced. The final result of representation of africans of all colour is hopefully what will make this country succeed where other african countries have failed.

Pale_ZA_Male

In typing my last reply I missed a bit of activity. However may I say Afriviation that your comments are becoming personal and contribute nothing towards the issue you raised. The strength of your initial comments were that they were sensible and were expressed without the emotion you now display.

Afriviation

Romeo Thanks, Look man this forum is never going to get any of the gripes I have said all day today right. The reason I decided to post my views on this forum is becasue of the amount of gripes by the regular posters in this forum about BEE employment equity etc in Aviation. Someone had to tell them that hang on you are moaning about a,b and c whilst the millions of South Africans who could lay claim to this profession are sitting quietly and hoping for the sun to shine one day.

As one of the writers has posted recently, it is quite expensive for any Company to sponsor a pilot. Granted, but why do whities always moan about that darkie and that one who have been sponsored by governemet when in fact that's the least that could happen in trying to redress the past imbalances. I mean any outsider sho would have read these posts (before today off course) would think that SA white Aviators are marginalised whreas in fact the opposite is true.

birdlady

Afrivation,

I've had a really kuk day so please bear with me

You have made some valid points but in others you have not. Let me explain.

Agreed apartheid did create a huge amount of inequalities. Yes the aviation industry should be more demorgraphic. However, this should be done WITHOUT compromising safety. You mentioned in one of your earlier posts, as my understanding was, that because you have a licence you are qualified. I could not disagree with this more. Same as you would not expect a newly qualified doctor to perform a heart transplant by themselves you would not expect a newly qualified CPL to land an aircraft on some dodgy landing strip in the middle of nowhere in kuk weather by themselves. Baby steps is the key.

Another point you made was that the government should be responsibe for implementing BEE (for lack of a better word) in the aviation industry. This is all very well and think on principle is a good policy if not always practicle. But like you said yourself not many non pales are able to afford to fly in the first place. This is the same everywhere. Im irish, besides the fact that I grew up in SA why do you think Im doing my training here - because its ALOT CHEAPER. If I did go back to Ireland to finish my licence (did seriously consider after my experience today ) it would cost 10's of thousands of pounds - money which I do not have.

Your obviously a well educated bloke and I do understand where you are coming from even if you maybe slightly dillusional Allow me to explain, you said crime here is rampant because of the socio economics. Whose to blame for that. THE GOVERNMENT. Not enough money is spent on uplifting the people through education. If enough money was spent setting up education schemes we would not be in the position that we are in now - unemployement leading to crime and/or poor living conditions. And if you think about it by some screwed logic not enough money to fly

Romeo E.T.

Afriman, if your intention was to get at those in this forum and on various other topics that complain about BEE and employment equity issues, then you succeeded and I am with you on this issue, if we dont address the imbalances of the past then we are just sitting on a gunpowder keg just waiting for the ignition source, the time scale could be a problem, FAIR equity for those that have achieved at least the MINIMUM requirements is also only fair. Most of us have already achieved something in our lives and therefore should not withhold oppurtunities for others just because we are GREEDY, but the process must be FAIR. Token'isms in promotions and employment and awarding cadet scheme oppurtunities is not what we want as that will just cause another "thread" to be started up again...........You have made those anti-BEE/equity people aware of your gripe....I call on you to take it to the open if you actually want to see some FAIR action to take place.

Pale_ZA_Male

BEE today is far less severe than bussing was in America. It is an attempt to level the playing field and no-one wants to play uphill. BEE is still a form of discrimination and when you are at the receiving end you complain. Fortunately we, pale faces, have access to the media and can complain loudly. It was just a pity that for years under apartheid many whites could not hear any blacks complaining - otherwise things might have been different. A wheel that does not squeek receives no attention.

Afriviation

Birdlady, some of your points taken, I'm not sure how much os the history of this country that you do know, but I can tell you that the new government sis trying to undo a deliberate plan by the previous government to deny blacks of a proper education and development.

I'm not sure how they're doing in 12 years, nevertheless it is never going to be overnight same as the transformation of our cockpits. Social engineering is a very long process which requires Capital Investment, supportive communities and a competent government. However it's not only about getting the basics right for the poor it goes up along the food chain to include the professions like Aviation and others. People need to be made to feel that they are an integral part of the economy and not just labourers and consumers.

So once again the ppruners need to accept that in light of the expensive nature of training pilots, Unfortunately taxpayers money has to be used, it is for the benefit of all in the country ultimately. The only other lternative is to alienate SA blacks from flying forever.