boyracer

Afri Im not talking NON PALE MALE instructors Im talking Black instructors there are no BLACK instructors in SAA

Afriviation

JG1 Your ideologies would be practical if we all had equal opportunities. Affirmative Action Was a means to give the non pales the 40 years headstart the pales had. So be realistic, if there was no preference hiring there would be no black pilots in SA today and the trend would continue for a very long long time.

You cannot for example compare a pale 18 yr old who just completed his Matric to a non pale in terms of mental development etc. The Pale grew up in the Suburbs with all the modern day luxuries Tous for mental stimulation etc. The non Pale grew up in Orange farm studying under candle Light and surviving on one meal a day if lucky.

Sad to Say this situation hasn't changed much in the last 12 years, So if government were to stand and watch, It would simply get worse. You probably heard that In SA The richer are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Thanks God for Affirmative Action, I'd probably be working in your hangar today washing your aeroplane.

Afriviation

My definition of black is Africans, indians, Coloured and Asian. certainly in all my arguments in this thread.

boyracer

By your argument should you not add women to your version of black would love to stay but off to the pub cheers all ...good luck , ever heard of farting against thunder

JG1

So if I were a dark non-pale previously disadvantaged non-male of 18 would I have had less meals a day than a non-dark non-female advantaged pale of the same age? And after 12 years would a pale non-dark non-disadvantaged male then be more intelligent than a non-pale dark non-advantaged non-male or would he just be a bit fatter?

Romeo E.T.

And the reason that the poor folk are still stuyding by candle light in Orange Farm and similar is that your government would rather spend money on the deputy presidents holiday or on renaming the "non-political" name of JHB INTL at a cost of 5million? how many previously disadvantaged people could your goverment put through flight school for this , or proper SANDTON housing....but no......the gravy plane/train etc continues, and you have a rant and raving session

beechbum

Firstly I think regardless of how you feel,the past is something that we are all I'm sure not proud of. Secondly I have no objection for a non pale to be in the cockpit with me. I have flown on numerous occasions with SAA cadets and the majority were fine people. Let me add though that most of them had better educations and upbringings than I did. There was no studying by candle light in their households and mostly were a pleasure to work with.
But Afriman don't put words in my mouth as on no occasion did I say that non pales should be not allowed into the cockpit.
I am where I am now purely on merit. I worked and studied hard but as i said before don't demand something purely because you think it is your right.
Prove that you are good enough and you may get the just rewards....
And don't say I don't get it........either!!!!
Afriman it's a long road ahead and I will say again Rome wasn't built in a day..work with others and they will work with you!!!!
Here endeth the lesson........this sure is getting boring now. No wonder you failed your sim ride...you just don't listen do you!!!!! I'm outta here....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Afriviation

beechbum you have to agree, if it were not for affirmative action, you wouldn't have flown with those SAA Cadets in the first place.
There we are you've just proven my point, the more advantaged blacks who make it into the Cadet Scheme were not impoversihed, which means that there's a whole lot of black people out there who are under the dark cloud of poverty who do not even know there's such a thing as an aeroplane flown by a human being.

On the whole then blacks are still lagging behind in most things and yes I agree that the government could do much more to uplift the standards of living for black people. But some of these initiatives come under fire and criticism and people are branded as opportunists who only want to receive things on a silver platter. Do me all a favour go spend 1 day in the life of an average black household in Joe Slovo settlement and try and comprehend how do these people succeed against all these odds

And yes interventions like affirmative action are necessary to bring more blacks into the mainstream economy and certainly within aviation.

The main issue without getting too political is representitivity. Let our aviation in it's entirety reflect the demographics of our country. It can be done easier if everyone understands the concept and supports it. Then one day when we all are on an equal footing we can compete and I'm sure the non pales will win judging by their progress thus far against all odds.

Romeo E.T.

Afriman, have you taken up your grievance on a man to man/ face to face basis with whoever needs to see your point of view, its one thing to start a contraversial post whilst hiding behind annonimity against actually sitting down in conference with someone to hear you out and see all the sides of whatever argument and standpoint you may have and then find the solution without going to the "rumour" network.

Afriviation

Romeo this is one touchy subject amongst pale aviators in SA, Do you think I'd ever live to see another day If I were to publicly and openly voice out my opinion. Don't think so. I think the reward in this is being able to say what is right and not what someonoe wants to hear without fear of prejudice.

Anyway you're right there's a need to discuss this on a broader level, but am I the brave darkie to brace the adversity? neh. But at least I hope that someone out there is listening and will do something about changing the status quo in their circle of influence.

Romeo E.T.

If you are in the right then YES, you should open this up publically, You still haven't given any reason for why you feel like this. If it is because as I mentioned earlier that you feel that YOU have been done out of something and you know your rights in this NEW DEMOCRACY of ours then you should bring it out into the open, If however you are purely to blame for the current misserable situation that you find yourself in, by whatever actions you may have done earlier today, then stay hidden here on pprune and then you deserve the criticism that is flying your way, and no reslotion is gonna come your way. To start a post like this as your FIRST post, something bad (in your perception) must have happened today, and being here on pprune is not gonna make you any happier at all. I personally have dealt with your ethnic group on various occasions in flying and training and if he/she meets the standard then he/she deserves everything that is due to you and I am proud to say so, but if you don't work for it then you dont deserve it a hand out creates a very bad aftertaste.

bad

This has been a very interesting debate on an old subject that one would have thought was worn out by now. Thanks for starting the thread, and thanks to everyone who wrote in.....very entertaining!! I hope we can all look back in years to come, and laugh at the wasted emotion, because perhaps by that time, transformation will have taken place, and people will be happier to be hired on merit....how insulting for anyone to get a job they dont qualify for, simply because of their colour!

nugpot

That is not the "pale" style in the new SA.
BTW. Romeo ET - He was like this at the feeder airline too. Never happy, blames others. Psychologists call it an "external locus of control".

Rotates Lowly

What the hell is a "pale"?

Afriviation

Now why would anyone think I posted this thread because i had beef with some white person, c'mon I won't let the nation suffer because of one person's wrongdoing. Besides you intelligent people of pprune, which you should be by the nature of your profession, should have picked that up. Althought this is the was my 1st post I have followed the topics posted on this forum for a while. I could not help notice that a sgnificant number of posts had something to do with lambasting at the government for having done something to uplift a non pale aviator or even directed at the individual themselves or a particular aviation organisation that promoted equity.

Well before the bull**** baffles the whole world Someone had to say something to bring into prespective that not all was as gloomy for the pale aviators in SA but in fact the opposite is true. Black people are the presently disadvantaged have not taken their rightful place in SA Aviation.

You may regard that as arrogant or whatever but it is the simple truth which you choose to relate to hiring of incomptent people or the like. Well i have news for you, every black pilot out there is licenced by the Civil Aviation Authority like everyone of you and I'm not sure where this BS of hiring incompetent people comes from.

Furthermore if you are pale and have a flying job, regard yourself as lucky, and if you are about to be hired even luckier because if things were done meticulously to redress the imbalance moving forward the only pilots to be hired in SA Aviation in it's entirety should be black for the next 20 years. then we would have 95% black pilots in he country and then the principle of hiring on merit would take place. Hush hey, but realistically thats the only way transformation would in effect succeed in SA Aviation.

I myself wouldn't be comfortable with that arrangement because it would simply alienate every prospective white pilot from employment. I'm only suggesting a move from the other extreme where the whities are simply excluding blacks in Aviation.

You will argue that this is not so, then who else besides the government is willingly training and or employing blacks in this country. Solenta no. that's a lie that's SAA cadets , SAX, no that's another SAA training ground, Nationwide, no that's the CAA training ground. Mmmhh help me out here I'm running out of options. Any flying schools? Nada. Comair took 4 trainees in 19 Voetsek and that was it for them

The fact of the matter is Aviation in SA has not and will not accept blacks not unless it's forced down their throats.

Now I'm challenging all white owned Aviation Businesses have at least 1 black trainee/pilot in your ranks. Have some conscience for heaven's sake.

surely not

Afriaviation you make mention of SAA'a fleet being fully leased from European companies as if this is something unique and distasteful? Most of the Worlds fleet of commercial airliners are leased from major leasing companies in the USA or Europe. As yet I don't think there are any major leasing companies in Africa,

12 years is quite a long time in many ways, but in terms of education it doesn't cover the average pales time in school and university. So from the day things started to change for the better in SA the child starting school will only be 16. Not many 16 years old commercial pilots anywhere. For those who were already in school they would have had to WANT to be a commercial pilot to choose the right exams to qualify for sponsorship OR worked for very little at flying clubs in exchange for lessons and taken the long route.

I always said I wanted to be a pilot, but found excuses why I hadn't done it when in fact the real reason was I didn't want it enough to make the sacrifices. No matter I have had a good life in aviation on the ground.

If there are not enough non pales in the cockpits maybe it is because they can earn good money for less dedication elsewhere?

Christo

I have no idea!! I have it as whites, blacks, indians etc Call a spade a spade for crying out loud!!

But he chooses to selectively sidestep all questions posted to him and keeps hammering the same tune which is outa whack anyway Do they teach this kind of debating in school nowadays??

But like everyone said thus far, make a difference on 1st March when you go and vote, the current one is more into self enrichment than on service delivery etc! Not that the other candidates will do much better but we can dream can we

Afriviation

Surely not, Kindly read with some comprehension and stop wasting my time trying to explain obvious meaning behind such statements. If you had wet leased all your aircraft from Europe in SA not SAA, what would you have in those cockpits. Please don't make me have to explain the meaning of wet leasing.

beechbum

Afri that is one mighty huge horse you're on! I'm surprised you're still on it.
Man I cannot believe your arrogant, ignorant attitude is tolerated on this forum.
It seems that you have the audacity to tell us that you are now an expert on wet leasing.....man break the horses' legs and let me see you fall!!!!!
As they say every village has one just a pity they kicked you out of theirs!!!!!
.......what in the Sam hell are you trying to say here ol wise one??????
The time has come........

Tokoloshe

Afriviation,

Judging from your incessant drivel and whining about how bad you have it, I can only conclude that you are not plagued by ideas...
Take a second or two and consider the many (and I mean many ) less fortunate people in this aviation business. If I was in your position, I would thank my lucky stars for where I am.
You keep harping on about aviation and the demographic balance; what about the medical field? Why doesn't the goverment just take people out of high school and make them doctors or surgeons or anaethetists? The answer is the same as aviation; You have to REALLY WANT to do it, and, just like aviation, putting inexperienced (Note, I did not say "qualified" ) people in the wrong positions invariably ends up with people dying.
As previous posters have stated, many folk were forced to take the long and hard route to where they are nowadays and they are justifiably proud of their achievements.
You will probably achieve all your goals in the airline with your demands and connections with all your comrades. That's your business, but please don't expect or demand respect from your colleagues. The world is a hard please and in case you don't know,it has to be earned.
I am an African, with a white skin and there is nothing I can do about it!
What about Africa for the Africans? Oh sorry, that doesn't quite suit your present agenda.
Just for the record, I flew many moons ago with several black Kenyan pilots operating out of Nairobi and Loki and am not ashamed to say they spoke better English than me and flew better most of the time too! Where are they now?? Mostly in KQ. Why? Because they deserved it. (There are lots of Mazungus there too )
I'm sure you will have some reply to this but quite frankly I don't care. The sad truth is that those who have been there and done it know what I'm talking about, I say sad because you obviously haven't.

I think you should just tell everyone what you really want to see in SAA that would make you really happy. I think that if you really did have a passion for aviation you would not be spending so much time at the keyboard winding everyone else up, unless you want to the head of flight ops

Maybe next time you go on a flight, ask the Captain if you can make the PA anouncement. It might make you feel better and I'm sure all the passengers will sleep better knowing that SAA actually has a non-pale (your term) pilot up front.

Let's see if you have anything of real value to add......

Kwaheri