EC120 Rolls in Durban
EC120 Rolls in Durban
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I find it really difficult to understand why high time pilots are battling so much with these really great machines and giving the machine a bad name.
Recently an engine was cooked on start up by a high time pilot in the Waterberg, a Parks Board Pilot flew his machines into trees, and now the Durban incident. Its time the CAA look into the problem. Perhaps its a training problem. Not enough time spent on doing the type ratings. Real shame!
Recently an engine was cooked on start up by a high time pilot in the Waterberg, a Parks Board Pilot flew his machines into trees, and now the Durban incident. Its time the CAA look into the problem. Perhaps its a training problem. Not enough time spent on doing the type ratings. Real shame!
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I have also heard that they were busy with a base check and had completed the autorotations and were looking at Tail Rotor emergencies. (To the best of my knowledge, that is a normal course of events)
I am aware that there are lots of discussions about tail rotor effectiveness in the Rotorheads forum. There is major discussion about the Bell 206 series and LTE. Does the fenestron in the EC-120 suffer from a similar effect?
I am aware that in hot conditions the heli ambulance pilots have reached the limit as far as directional control is concerned when heavy and out of confined areas. What are the feelings about the control in a fenestron design and in particular is there a situation where you can end up with very little tail rotor effect from the fan?
I am aware that there are lots of discussions about tail rotor effectiveness in the Rotorheads forum. There is major discussion about the Bell 206 series and LTE. Does the fenestron in the EC-120 suffer from a similar effect?
I am aware that in hot conditions the heli ambulance pilots have reached the limit as far as directional control is concerned when heavy and out of confined areas. What are the feelings about the control in a fenestron design and in particular is there a situation where you can end up with very little tail rotor effect from the fan?
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Fenestron Tail Rotors
There has been some debate in the past about the effectiveness of the fenestron. As I remember, it is a good aviation trade off; less effectiveness but much quieter.
The manufacturers marketing department is always quick to point out the positives and very slow to admit any short comings - obvious!
I have also heard of issues relating to the lack of thrust from the fan in a fenestron in certain conditions. The same could be said of the tail rotor. Are there any instructors out there who have had the brown corduroy trouser syndrome whilst flying a fan tailed helo? Can we perhaps get some input from the pilot of the Durban machine as to what exactly happened?
The manufacturers marketing department is always quick to point out the positives and very slow to admit any short comings - obvious!
I have also heard of issues relating to the lack of thrust from the fan in a fenestron in certain conditions. The same could be said of the tail rotor. Are there any instructors out there who have had the brown corduroy trouser syndrome whilst flying a fan tailed helo? Can we perhaps get some input from the pilot of the Durban machine as to what exactly happened?
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I understand that the SACAA has withdrawn the instructor rating of the pilot of the EC-120. He will get this back when he completes a Eurocopter Instructors course because "of fenestron issues". This smells!
Are Eurocopter aware of something that we are not?
Is there something to do with the fenestron that needs extra instruction and if so, why?
Are all helicopter instructors conversions to be done by "factory approved" instructors in the future?
Seems to me that there are an aweful lot of 'now illegal' instructors in SA if this is the case...
Are Eurocopter aware of something that we are not?
Is there something to do with the fenestron that needs extra instruction and if so, why?
Are all helicopter instructors conversions to be done by "factory approved" instructors in the future?
Seems to me that there are an aweful lot of 'now illegal' instructors in SA if this is the case...
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If this is true regarding CAA's actions then I would be most concerned since I believe that the incident only took place late last week - how on earth did the board of equiry convene so rapidly and the final CAA report get completed so quickly so that they (CAA) could make such a quick decision - sounds like a typical case of the "CAA tail wagging the dog" scenario - maybe someone from CAA could shed some light - do I sense bias here........
This incident is gathering much attention amongst the pilots/instructors and operators locally - time for Eurcopter to do some serious damage control. Rumour has it that the tail rotor failures are an illegal excercise - maybe the marketing youngster from Eurocopter SA can give the industry some valuable info in this respect, although with the past history I along with many others won't be holding our breath for a reply!
Its interesting to note that many EC 120 instructors have been doing this excercise as the manual does make mention of tail rotor failures - no mention at all though of it being illegal as I bet this will eat into EC 120 sales worldwide - should we be considering the Bell option rather - certainly seems so as the cloud of mystery thickens surounding this one.
What about the rest of the EC 120 instructors - will they also need to attend a so called "approved EC 120 instructors course" - hopefully Eurcopter will be footing the bill for this - a valuable lesson learn't (ouch) for not communicating to important information to the end user.
This incident is gathering much attention amongst the pilots/instructors and operators locally - time for Eurcopter to do some serious damage control. Rumour has it that the tail rotor failures are an illegal excercise - maybe the marketing youngster from Eurocopter SA can give the industry some valuable info in this respect, although with the past history I along with many others won't be holding our breath for a reply!
Its interesting to note that many EC 120 instructors have been doing this excercise as the manual does make mention of tail rotor failures - no mention at all though of it being illegal as I bet this will eat into EC 120 sales worldwide - should we be considering the Bell option rather - certainly seems so as the cloud of mystery thickens surounding this one.
What about the rest of the EC 120 instructors - will they also need to attend a so called "approved EC 120 instructors course" - hopefully Eurcopter will be footing the bill for this - a valuable lesson learn't (ouch) for not communicating to important information to the end user.
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Who provides the course??
The withdrawal of the instructors rating has not been committed to writing yet, just the verbal notification. With the stuff that is flying around right now, maybe it will never happen. As Rotor Revs has intimated, fastest CAA Board of Inquiry ever!
This insistance of a "Eurocopter approved course", who provides such a thing? Is this another attempt by some individuals at the CAA to steer business to their buddies in the industry?
Like I have said before - smelly business!!
This insistance of a "Eurocopter approved course", who provides such a thing? Is this another attempt by some individuals at the CAA to steer business to their buddies in the industry?
Like I have said before - smelly business!!
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Sir Cumference........ course??? What course???
You're right my friend, and your train of thought is not far off the mark.
Eurocopter SA does not provide new clients or pilots with a "Eurocopter Approved Course" or "factory approved" conversion to type here in SA. Some EC 120 owners have gone to the factory at Marignagne to attend some sort of a course, and some even ferried their own helicopters to SA.
In SA, there is only one SACAA Helicopter pilot & DE that has attended the course at the factory. Eurocopter SA normally gets this gentleman to do the conversion to type on the EC 120's, EC 130's and Squirrels. Apparantly he is very thorough, and spends at least an hour or two going thru the start on the EC 120. A friend of mine did his conversion with this gentleman, and was suitably impressed.
If the pilot on the EC 120 in Durban was instructor rated on the machine, then why did the CAA pull his instructors rating? Surely someone must have converted him, given him his instructors rating on the type, and for that reason he's an instructor on type. I fail to understand what he did wrong, and why the CAA would be pulling his rating. Something not quite right there.
Come on CAA guys, give us a clue here please!
You're right my friend, and your train of thought is not far off the mark.
Eurocopter SA does not provide new clients or pilots with a "Eurocopter Approved Course" or "factory approved" conversion to type here in SA. Some EC 120 owners have gone to the factory at Marignagne to attend some sort of a course, and some even ferried their own helicopters to SA.
In SA, there is only one SACAA Helicopter pilot & DE that has attended the course at the factory. Eurocopter SA normally gets this gentleman to do the conversion to type on the EC 120's, EC 130's and Squirrels. Apparantly he is very thorough, and spends at least an hour or two going thru the start on the EC 120. A friend of mine did his conversion with this gentleman, and was suitably impressed.
If the pilot on the EC 120 in Durban was instructor rated on the machine, then why did the CAA pull his instructors rating? Surely someone must have converted him, given him his instructors rating on the type, and for that reason he's an instructor on type. I fail to understand what he did wrong, and why the CAA would be pulling his rating. Something not quite right there.
Come on CAA guys, give us a clue here please!
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Check EC120 manual to be sure - I don't have one with me - but except for tail rotor (fenestrom) failure in the hover, I believe the manual requires autorotation in the event of tail rotor or control failure. Does anyone know what they were doing at the time in Durban - did they perhaps try throttle control from normal flight to the ground which could be the reason for the hoohah ?
Manual does instruct on closing the throttle if failure occurs in the hover and on trying to gain forward speed if OGE.
The DE who did my rating, probably the one referred to above, also advised me recently that in a conversation with a Eurocopter rep he was told the same story applies with the Squirrel. Prang one trying anything else but auto and you'd be 'left out in the cold' by Eurocopter although this DE had in the past done many tail rotor control/failures to the ground using throttle control even with the floor throttle...
The EC120 is the only machine I fly on which I am not instructor rated and am quite glad of that right now, thank you very much...
Manual does instruct on closing the throttle if failure occurs in the hover and on trying to gain forward speed if OGE.
The DE who did my rating, probably the one referred to above, also advised me recently that in a conversation with a Eurocopter rep he was told the same story applies with the Squirrel. Prang one trying anything else but auto and you'd be 'left out in the cold' by Eurocopter although this DE had in the past done many tail rotor control/failures to the ground using throttle control even with the floor throttle...
The EC120 is the only machine I fly on which I am not instructor rated and am quite glad of that right now, thank you very much...
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Hi All
Sorry I have missed somthing here !!!
What type of execrise, coz you get tail-rotor controle/failuar in the hover and in flight. and was it Right, neutral , left or total failuar
And there are is there a speed for tail rotor control failuar ????????
Goaround7 how many hours do you have on heli and on 120s????
Sorry I have missed somthing here !!!
What type of execrise, coz you get tail-rotor controle/failuar in the hover and in flight. and was it Right, neutral , left or total failuar
And there are is there a speed for tail rotor control failuar ????????
Goaround7 how many hours do you have on heli and on 120s????
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I cant speak for Eurocopter, but after talking to sources I have been advised that there is no "Instructors Course" per se. Only an initial check out geared for one who is an Instructor.
As to the fenestron I have been told the only subtle difference is that fixed pedal operations call for Autorotation verus what some are used to during emergency procedures.
Im sure someone will work me over on that, but its pretty close to being from the horses mouth.
As to the fenestron I have been told the only subtle difference is that fixed pedal operations call for Autorotation verus what some are used to during emergency procedures.
Im sure someone will work me over on that, but its pretty close to being from the horses mouth.
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Firefly,
Not quite sure what you mean by a speed for tail rotor failure ? But as you say there are different kinds of emergency: stuck pedals, control failure or fenestrom failure.
As B Sousa says, it appears that if you are not in the hover, ie making translational flight, then Eurocopter manual requires you to auto in all these emegencies. Squirrel however does permit you to do a run on landing if you have only tail rotor CONTROL failure.
I've 2000 hours on helis and 1400 instruction from 22 to 407. I don't instruct on the EC because I have only about 25 hours on it and don't feel comfortable with these sorts of issues and particularly the risk of hot starting it while training, especially as it is not covered by the insurance anymore. That discomfort with the EC is amplified when it's suggested that things might be different with a fenstrom and it makes me feel like I don't know the whole story.... I have tried to go on the Eurocopter ground course recently but they changed the dates at the last minute and I couldn't make it.
Maybe someone with fenestrom experience would care to comment ?
Not quite sure what you mean by a speed for tail rotor failure ? But as you say there are different kinds of emergency: stuck pedals, control failure or fenestrom failure.
As B Sousa says, it appears that if you are not in the hover, ie making translational flight, then Eurocopter manual requires you to auto in all these emegencies. Squirrel however does permit you to do a run on landing if you have only tail rotor CONTROL failure.
I've 2000 hours on helis and 1400 instruction from 22 to 407. I don't instruct on the EC because I have only about 25 hours on it and don't feel comfortable with these sorts of issues and particularly the risk of hot starting it while training, especially as it is not covered by the insurance anymore. That discomfort with the EC is amplified when it's suggested that things might be different with a fenstrom and it makes me feel like I don't know the whole story.... I have tried to go on the Eurocopter ground course recently but they changed the dates at the last minute and I couldn't make it.
Maybe someone with fenestrom experience would care to comment ?
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I have ascertained that the exercise that was being flown was one of tail rotor control failure. Everything was 'normal' until the rotation started when throttle was used to control the turn. No effect, just increasing rate of turn and pedals, which were used early in an attempt to arrest the turn (abort the exercise) had no effect.
I have been on the phone this morning and have confirmation that one of the Durban instructors, not involved in the thread accident, was given written notification yesterday that his EC-120 Instructors rating has been withdrawn until he has provided documentary proof from Eurocopter SA that he has undergone the full training required for the qualification of the instructors rating on the EC-120 helicopter.
Now the interesting issue is that this instructor was given his rating by the late Tony Ubsdell who had just returned from the Eurocopter Factory Course more than 5 years ago. He has been flying the EC-120 regularly since then. It is understood that at the time, Tony was the only EC-120 Factory Approved Instructor in the country. Furthermore, this instructor's EC-130 instructors rating seems to still be valid!?
Now I am really confused! What is the issue here? Fenestron or just EC-120? Could the "marketing youngster from Eurocopter" please give us some information as to what the real issue is here. CAA should also shed some light on exactly what the real issue is.
I am led to believe that there is a 'video' with some important gen on it about fenestron effects but nobody has access to this video but a chosen few.
Now if there are issues about the fenestron and in particular the EC-120 that the CAA are aware of and that Eurocopter are also aware of and this is of such relevance that "in the interests of public safety" selected instructors have had their validations withdrawn, should communication from Eurocopter/CAA not be sent out to ALL EC-120 users/pilots/operators informing them of this issue "in the interests of public safety"???
Smells so bad my eyes are beginning to water!!!
I have been on the phone this morning and have confirmation that one of the Durban instructors, not involved in the thread accident, was given written notification yesterday that his EC-120 Instructors rating has been withdrawn until he has provided documentary proof from Eurocopter SA that he has undergone the full training required for the qualification of the instructors rating on the EC-120 helicopter.
Now the interesting issue is that this instructor was given his rating by the late Tony Ubsdell who had just returned from the Eurocopter Factory Course more than 5 years ago. He has been flying the EC-120 regularly since then. It is understood that at the time, Tony was the only EC-120 Factory Approved Instructor in the country. Furthermore, this instructor's EC-130 instructors rating seems to still be valid!?
Now I am really confused! What is the issue here? Fenestron or just EC-120? Could the "marketing youngster from Eurocopter" please give us some information as to what the real issue is here. CAA should also shed some light on exactly what the real issue is.
I am led to believe that there is a 'video' with some important gen on it about fenestron effects but nobody has access to this video but a chosen few.
Now if there are issues about the fenestron and in particular the EC-120 that the CAA are aware of and that Eurocopter are also aware of and this is of such relevance that "in the interests of public safety" selected instructors have had their validations withdrawn, should communication from Eurocopter/CAA not be sent out to ALL EC-120 users/pilots/operators informing them of this issue "in the interests of public safety"???
Smells so bad my eyes are beginning to water!!!
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Great posting Sir!
All of us EC 120 pilots should stand together and unite as one against this bull
Eurocopter should come clean and explain exactly what the gaff is, followed by the CAA. Can you imagine the insurance implication / escalations should a few things go wrong, and Eurocopter walks away from it saying, "sorry, you did'nt do a factory course".
Who is authorized to do a factory course? Eurocopter or Broberg?
Some answers please!
Furthermore, is the suspension of EC 120 instructor's ratings now the norm all of a sudden, and if so why? Am I reading it correctly that unless you have done a Eurocopter "factory course", you are not competent to fly the machine or instruct on it????
I think there's a snake in the grass here.........
All of us EC 120 pilots should stand together and unite as one against this bull
Eurocopter should come clean and explain exactly what the gaff is, followed by the CAA. Can you imagine the insurance implication / escalations should a few things go wrong, and Eurocopter walks away from it saying, "sorry, you did'nt do a factory course".Who is authorized to do a factory course? Eurocopter or Broberg?
Some answers please!
Furthermore, is the suspension of EC 120 instructor's ratings now the norm all of a sudden, and if so why? Am I reading it correctly that unless you have done a Eurocopter "factory course", you are not competent to fly the machine or instruct on it????
I think there's a snake in the grass here.........