PA28 damaged due to open door
 

A PA28 was involved in an eventful landing after the cabin door opened in flight. No injuries fortunately.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-60700898

The cabin door opened in a PA28 early on in my PPL training in 1975. The instructor, Cliff Barnett, got me to reduce to just above stall speed with flaps down but still couldn’t close the door due to the airflow. We returned to the airfield and I landed successfully while Cliff held on to the door. It was suggested to us by the CFI that opening the vent hatch would have allowed the door to close.

AAIB report

https://assets.publishing.service.go...AVBT_03-22.pdf

I had the Pa28 door open departing Hanksville, Utah, solo. I returned and landed no problem. I might have used rudder to keep it close to fuselage. I don't remember if I got it closed in the air.
Centre lock on that airframe was difficult to catch - as I heard later.
Continued with flight after locking it.

It's about time that performing one flight - a complete flight from A to B, not just a short pattern! - with an open door in a training aircraft becomes part of the PPL syllabus. To demonstrate to the new pilots that these airplanes don't care the least little bit whether or not the door is open, closed or missing altogehter. There is some noise and some draft, maybe a little unpleasant on a cold day, but this is it. Just keep flying. So many totally unnecessary crashes and hard landings after rushed "emergency returns" could be avoided.

So true, it happens from time to time, not a big deal.

What an utter lack of skill and understanding on the part of the instructor.
An open door in a Pa28 is a complete non event.
No student of mine ever flew solo without having flown at least one pattern with the door open. Half the time I was the one that forgot to latch it properly in the first place.

There was a great line by the great Capt Warren Vanderburgh that applies to this incident. "I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to make you like this". This incident with a warrior door comming open and the instruct not being able to deal with it adequitely is a classic example of what happens when generations of instructor who just don't know are teaching new instructors sho just don't know, then they go on to teach others.

I have done probably 500 landings with doors floating open on the Warrior. How do I know this, I have sent at least 500 1st solos in Warriors, and everyone has had the door pop open on the 1st circuit (while dual), because I made it happen. The students freaks out , I show them the aircraft flies quite fine, they calm down when they realise the thing is not going to fall out of the sky, we land, close the door and continue the sortie. I have had dozens and dozens of students have the door pop open on later flights and they all said they were well prepared from the experiance with me and just got on with flying the aircraft. No biggie.

I place the blame squarely on that instructors own previous instructors, the chief pilot who did the induction of the instructor (S&P checks), the instructors who sent her first solo, PP:, CPL training and more importantly, the instructors who did her instructor rating and the examiner who tested her for the rating. All share a portion of the blame.

Maybe the manufacturers have a bit of responsibility? On my a/c there is a big red light in your face if the canopy isn't locked.

Ahhhh, no it didn't, it popped open, and trailed a few inches upon, neither opening more, nor being willing to be closed. This should be trained as an acknowledge and ignore event. If everything else is fine, you can play with the rudder, and probably get it closed, but you can also break the door handle if you fight against it.

There is no excuse for loosing control of the airplane. As per FAA AC105-2c, all PA-28-140, 160 & 180s may be approved to fly with the cabin door removed.

I was in a DC3 when the forward freight door unlatched itself on climb-out and stayed three or four inches open. The captain looked back when the door warning light came on but we gave him the thumbs-up and I managed to pull it shut with the other engineer holding my jacket. It took a good tug but nothing too demanding. After that we had a bungee cord to hold the handle in place until the worn latch aperture doublers could be replaced.

An experienced PPL holder once told me it was possible to yaw a Cessna single into a turn by opening one of the cabin doors. slightly.

It was (a very unusual I must confess) part of my PPL instructor course to land a C152 with the doors alone. Set the power so that it will just climb a tiny little bit, 100ft/min maybe, and tighten the lock of the throttle lever. Then unlock both doors and push them outwards with your arms as needed, an adult's armspan is large enough to do that alone. One at a time for turns and both toghether to turn that little climb rate into a shallow descent. No problem to land it that way provided the runway is long enough and not too much wind.

Yes, but it doesn't work the way you'd think. Opening the left door will make the plane bank to the right. The doors are too far forward to act as a rudder, however, opening a door will force more air over that wing (compared to the other wing) and therefore cause it to lift a little more, and bank away from the opened door. That said, this is inadvisable, as the doors are not designed for this, and expensive to repair when a hinge, or the door structure is cracked from unintended loads. On floats, we may open and hold one or both cabin doors when sailing, to benefit from the wind.

When I flew jumpers in the 182 and 185, they had a right side upward opening door. The pilot opened or closed the door by use of the rudder. The position of the door could be controlled with pleasing precision this way.

Do not fly 100 series Cessnas with both front doors off, not approved, and unsafe.

When I did my PFT, the examiner quietly opened his door while we were lined up and waiting to take off. I noticed and asked him to close it, but I was told that if I hadn’t noticed it until the take off run, the “correct” response would have been to ignore it and continue the take off.

As a student I once trapped the end of the seat belt in the door of a 150 which started making a hell of a racket. Without really thinking I popped open the door and pulled it in. The instructor only looked slightly askance at me.

In the original story the most remarkable thing to me seems to be that in an unusual situation the instructor would let a 'trial flight' student do the landing. Even if that is just inaccurate reporting and the student was near PPL it still seems a strange decision unless the instructor had flown with the student a lot which obviously could not have been the case here.

I was flying a hired 152 very soon after qualifying, about 70 hours logged. I’d persuaded my wife to come up with me (she is a reluctant SLF in , to quote, a ‘proper plane with a proper pilot’)

not that far off the end of the runway is a high voltage pylon. It was as we were over that at the typical 152 ‘just about flying speed’ that the passenger door opened

I didn’t realise that in managing to deal with that whilst neither crashing nor hitting the pylons qualified me as a sky god ….

Was that the same Cliff Barnett who tragically lost his life in a twin engined aircraft accident involving a mid air collision? If so, he sent me off for my first powered solo, at Ipswich in 1973.

So it was the instructor’s first flight as an instructor? With 1 hour logged in the last 90 days? And she let the student fly the approach to land?

This is a fascinating thread but, with some experience of maintaining Cessna 152/172s, I must voice a little disquiet. The hinge material is actually made from recycled coffee-machine pods; they may look flimsy, but they are not nearly as strong as they look. On your next pre-flight, compare them with hinges on the control surfaces that Clyde intended you to use.

When that door comes off, it will likely take half the horizontal stab with it. Better be prepared to flap the remaining door like f@ck to maintain stability.

Are there any accident/incident reports regarding this issue? I did a search on the internet and could not find anything.

I'm sorry, I'm not saying this has happened but, on aircraft I've worked on, loss of panels, doors, cowlings can generally be divided into "darn, need a new panel" and "Jeez, this could take another big lump of the aircraft with it". In the latter category in my experience are Puma transmission deck cowlings, King Air upper engine cowlings, Navajo/Chieftain nose baggage doors, and I would include any crew door.

A Cessna 150/152/172 door is secured in flight at 3 points; 2 hinges and the latch. It is being suggested that one of these can be released and the other 2 put under stress outside their design certification.

Again, I'm not saying its a thing but, you know, be my guest.

Agree that unlatched PA-28 door is, or should be, a non event. For those not familiar with the aircraft the door has two front hinges and two latches. I expect the most common error is to takeoff with the upper latch not fastened. It's noisy but has no control impact. Far less likely is to fail to secure the top latch and the main aft latch. Still not a controllability problem.

Many years ago a pilot lost control of an aircraft over Phoenix and crashed in a back yard swimming pool. A door had opened in flight. Some time later a tow pilot who had towed me many times died when he lost control after the Pawnee engine cowling opened soon after takeoff. The distraction is real and can kill you but that doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft was not controllable.

I did learn the hard way that the 182 jump door does change performance when opened. I was in a nice controlled flare when the jumpmaster, who had ridden down with me to take the next load of static line students, opened the door. Landing was firm and he was asked not to do that again.

It was worse than I had remembered - https://www.upi.com/Archives/1988/06...7279581227200/

Rattle and Bang, Bubbles and Squeak
 

I had the same thing happen to me, sherburn2LA, except I was solo in a 152. The clatter arose as I rotated and continued 'til ~ 400 msl when I diagnosed the problem, opened the pilot's-side door, and retrieved the metal-tipped belt. Then I restarted my heart! I shave my sparsely-populated pate, but my gray beard still has a special highlight streak of white on my chin which grew in after the incident.

- Ed

I flew many types of PA28, Cruiser, Warrior, Archer, and Dakota, and had no issue with the door becoming unlatched. I did however have a problem with a C172 having departed BWU (Sydney Bankstown) for YHOX (Liverpool Hoxton Park) after climbing out, at ca. 550ft. a massive noise of wind rush as the pax door became unlatched. a/s was 90kts.
I was able to reach over, and second attempt able to pull the door closed. I decided to return to BWU to check the lock on the a/c.
I wonder if a "Stabilized Approach Concept" would have made a difference to the outcome of the PA28 at Welshpool I had been taught this method, driving the PA28 cruiser in at a constant 75kts.?
Lance Shippey

I wouldn't have any problems with a C-172 or PA-28 door coming open and indeed during my distant training was taught to open a door during PFLs in case the subsequent arrival distorted the frame and trapped the occupants.

What I am not so sure about though is the DA-20 Katana I am flying at the moment. Its hinged in a way that it lifts and travels backwards and I don't know what the consequences might be of it coming unlatched at 120 kts. Certainly opening it on the ramp on a windy day meant it opened very briskly and needed to be held carefully to avoid it banging back onto the stops.

Any experiences with Diamonds ?

I have door-off approval EOs for all my PA28s for aerial photography , one archer also has approval to fly with the baggage door removed. There are a few airspeed and bank angle limitations but that’s all. I’ve dropped skydivers from PA28, Islanders and C182s with various configurations some with roller doors some with door removed for the whole flight. Not sure why it’s a big deal in a non pressurised light aircraft?
Edited to add I would never get in an aircraft like the one described in the post above where it has a hinged canopy, apart from it coming open and blowung off, there’s been people trapped in these things if they end up landing on the roof.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau though it was worth looking at: Aviation Short Investigation Bulletin - 15

B2N2 & Ozgrade3 amongst others make good points around unintended door openings being something they've effectively taught. Along with others here I've experienced this issue several times (see https://www.pprune.org/private-flyin...l for one example) thus I agree with what next that dealing with this should be a specific part of the training syllabus.

That said I'm not sure such training should be restricted to just door openings, and that dealing with other non-fatal uncommanded events that often occur with aircraft should also be taught - as much as it's possible to teach for things that are by nature unforeseen. I recall in my training an instructional flight that was all about 'unusual attitudes' and how to recover from them, but I do not think we did anything all - in flight - on how to deal with radio issues, opening doors, jammed controls and the like. Some of these things were discussed on the ground, but that's a very different thing to practical examples in the air - or even at least in a simulator.

So, to my mind, an 'unusual event' instructional flight should be a pre-requisite for a PPL, and in more detail perhaps for a CPL. Such training and flight could be used to assess the 'presence of mind' of the candidate - how they are able to deal with unusual occurrences yet fly the aircraft successfully at the same time.

Although the report on this accident is brief it seems to me the accident instructor might have benefited from such a segment in their training, examiners would have gained an insight into their ability in such situations, and we may not have been discussing this event...

FP.

I had about five hours total time the first time a door came open. (I hadn't latched it properly because it was a different airplane than I had had my first four previous lessons in, and it had to be actually latched, not just slammed like in the other airplane). It opened right after take off.

The instructor said, "Your door is open."
I said, "I know," and did nothing.
"Aren't you going to close it?" she asked.
"No. I'm flying the plane." So I had >that< much experience and already someone had taught me that flying the plane was first priority.
She reached over me and closed the door.

it was indeed the same Cliff Barnett. A very laid back and excellent instructor who took me from zero to PPL in five weeks at Ipswich. He went on to become the light aircraft correspondent for Flight International and I believe he was on assignment for them when the accident happened.

He died along with Flight photographer and Propliner enthusiast Steve Piercey and a South American photographer in an Aztec while doing air to air photography with a Beech 1900 at the Hannover Air Show in 1984. The 1900 landed safely.

Not only doors, I’d open the windows too on Cessna aircraft.
I would always brief it before hand, the what if scenario, at a non towered airport takeoff with one or both windows open.
Then prior to solo pop mine unexpectedly.
Bring Florida in the summertime we’d mostly do slow flight excercises with the windows open anyway.
Even though technically there isn’t one I’d use Vfe as max window open speed.

Errrr..........ok.

Let me provide a little more context to that remark. Flight instruction at a busy school in Florida, 5-8 flights a day in all different aircraft that are all 30+ years old with tens of thousands of airframe hours and less then perfect latches aka junk aircraft.
Yes, I’ve forgotten a door or two as this one just needed a slam, the other one need a slam and a twist and the third one needed voodoo incantations to even get the engine started let alone close a door.
Yes, guilty…..never pranged one though.

Quite. The doors on some 150s/152s I flew were quite adept at springing open so I always used to brief it to students ... and it quite often happened at least once during their training. Once the venturi effect opens the door a few cm, airflow takes over to keep it from opening any more - even if they try to push it open further.

Did have an amusing moment in later life when, in a Trislander, my pax passed a note up to me from the back explaining the rear-most door had opened as I rotated. As there were now, effectively, 2 pax sat back aft on one seat staring wide-eyed at the gap beside the other seat, I decided it was prudent to fly a quick circuit and land back on and sort it out. They took it in good spirit once I explained what had happened and what a non-event it was. Did have a quiet word with the ground staff who dispatched me when I next saw them tho! :ok: