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-   -   Engine failure video (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/643555-engine-failure-video.html)

double_barrel 5th Nov 2021 13:03

Engine failure video
 
I thought his may be of interest

Youtubers are lining-up to say what a hero the pilot was, but It seems to show a very badly handled engine fail within easy reach of a runway. Any comments? Any suggestions on options after she found herself over the threshold and WAY too high and fast? Other than don't come in too high and fast.


HOVIS 5th Nov 2021 13:22

Not a pilot here.
Apart from the bounce, what exactly is wrong?

double_barrel 5th Nov 2021 13:36


Originally Posted by HOVIS (Post 11137678)
Not a pilot here.
Apart from the bounce, what exactly is wrong?

The approach was WAY too high and fast with the result that she came within a hair's breadth of wrapping it round a tree. She could easily have dumped a lot of energy before she reached the threshold. I don't know, but I'm guessing there's a good chance she could have made that approach her downwind leg and landed in the other direction. Once over the runway with full flaps, it was never going to be pretty, but even then she could have something - anything - rather than float on by. I have never had an engine fail for real, but even a lowly PPL like me has done many practice engine-out approaches and landings. That was horrible.

172_driver 5th Nov 2021 13:49


That was horrible.
Harsh judgement. She walked away alive.

And it looks like the plane can be used again... (after the engine is fixed, that is).

henra 5th Nov 2021 13:53


Originally Posted by double_barrel (Post 11137669)
I thought his may be of interest
Youtubers are lining-up to say what a hero the pilot was, but It seems to show a very badly handled engine fail within easy reach of a runway. Any comments?

Aircraft still in one piece and without a scratch. Crew could walk away. Aircraft + Crew can be re-used.
NTSB Database and graveyards are full of examples with completely different outcomes. 'nuff said.

OK, Armchair Chuck Yeagers can pontificate what marks for style they give for this one. I'm only impressed by things which people actually have done/achieved not so much by people who theoretize how they would have done better..
The difference between theory and practice is bigger in practice than in theory.

double_barrel 5th Nov 2021 14:00


Originally Posted by henra (Post 11137694)
Aircraft still in one piece and without a scratch. Crew could walk away. Aircraft + Crew can be re-used.


Fair enough. But it looked very close to a disastrous outcome, anything to learn here?

havick 5th Nov 2021 14:01


Originally Posted by double_barrel (Post 11137669)
I thought his may be of interest

Youtubers are lining-up to say what a hero the pilot was, but It seems to show a very badly handled engine fail within easy reach of a runway. Any comments? Any suggestions on options after she found herself over the threshold and WAY too high and fast? Other than don't come in too high and fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCLGtYESESs

have you personally put down a real engine failure in a single before?

double_barrel 5th Nov 2021 14:03


Originally Posted by havick (Post 11137699)
have you personally put down a real engine failure in a single before?

Sigh. No I have not, as I said above.

OK, it was brilliant. No lessons here.

pilotmike 5th Nov 2021 14:09

I agree the judgements are too harsh. Two people walked away and the plane is un-bent. A perfect result. Some small areas for improvement - if God forbid, she suffers another - but hey, a great end result.

Never forget, real engine failures are WAY harder than simulated ones. Please remember, double_barrel, the plane comes down quicker and has a lot less glide range than simulated ones with the engine at idle. In almost any position the prop stops, there is likely to be disrupted airflow to the wing, hence increased stall speed is a further issue. And that is likely to affect just 1 wing only, further increasing the potential danger. So obviously it is extremely wise to carry a few knots extra. I know this because I have taught 100s of simulated failures, and handled 3 for real. They are very, very different situations. And the pulse is usually much higher on a real one, knowing that you can't simply apply power and go around if it looks bad. She kept her own emotions and the plane apparently under perfect control. Well done to her!

Compared to the alternatives of panicking then stalling, hoping that you might make it downwind (as you suggested) then spinning in on the final 180 degree turn, undershooting and crashing, overshooting and crashing, bending the undercarriage, flipping it over, ground looping, or any other of the many, many ways to cock it up, her outcome was way better than any of them.

Incidentally, can you tell us all how much height a 172 with the engine stopped, with the prop disrupting flow to the wings, with full flap, flying say 5 knots faster than usual to compensate for increased stall speed will lose in a perfectly balanced and perfectly executed 180 degree turn like yours would be? And how much extra height would be lost if it is wasn't quite perfectly balanced and perfectly executed, like yours?

Perhaps you'd be good enough to send in a video of your first REAL engine-out landing, and we'll collectively comment on it, ridicule it, full it apart, and generally criticise it - assuming you survive it and aren't too embarrassed by any damage or injuries sustained so as to not want it in the public domain? No? I thought not!

But PLEASE, don't be tempted into trying any 180 degree turns at low level with the engine out, unless you really know what you're doing. Just take my word for that one. She clearly made some good decisions and choices when her engine failed.

henra 5th Nov 2021 15:34


Originally Posted by double_barrel (Post 11137698)
Fair enough. But it looked very close to a disastrous outcome, anything to learn here?

No, not close to a disastrous outcome. At worst close to dinging the thing a tiny bit. For a disastrous outcome it would have taken an attempted 180. Graveyards are full of 180 attempts following engine problems. After continued VFR into IMC one of the big killers in GA. Therefore I give her highest marks in judgement. Could she have made it more beautifully? With a fine tuned and not fu*ked up side slip probably yes. But remember: When the fan quits any energy you dissipated is gone and not available any more as your asset. Therefore again: Good judgement to keep a bit energy excess (although obviously the excess energy was a bit on the high side).

Dorf 5th Nov 2021 15:54


Originally Posted by double_barrel (Post 11137669)
I thought his may be of interest

Any suggestions on options after she found herself over the threshold and WAY too high and fast? Other than don't come in too high and fast.

Um, at that point I think her alternative was crash in the trees. You do understand that If your engine doesn't work you can't go around, right?

henra 5th Nov 2021 16:22


Originally Posted by pilotmike (Post 11137703)
But PLEASE, don't be tempted into trying any 180 degree turns at low level with the engine out, unless you really know what you're doing.

I would even rather delete that part. There are many very experienced high time pilots who were highly regarded and considered to know what they are doing who died trying this.

Nightstop 5th Nov 2021 16:48

I nursed a SLAC PA28 Piper Cherokee back into Southend UK from a training flight near Abberton Reservoir with a rough running engine in Ď76. I really didnít know if weíd make it that far. I deliberately came in high, in case the engine failed completely. Landed OK. A piston had failed. The Boss wasnít happy, ungrateful or what!

RatherBeFlying 5th Nov 2021 17:53

NS, the Boss would be happier with a write-off than an expensive engine repair job (not covered by insurance) :p

kghjfg 5th Nov 2021 17:53

Looks good to me.

In an engine out situation you really donít want to try and stretch the glide.

I too have never had a real one, I know people who have, and apparently they are nothing like a PFL.

Iíd much rather be this little bit too high, in fact I was taught itís fine to run off the end of the field at low speed, but you really donít want to be hitting the hedge before the threshold at best glide speed.

double_barrel

IMHO, The learning point is, itís better to arrive high and go into trees on the ground at low speed than it is to arrive low and hit something before the threshold at high speed.

CHfour 5th Nov 2021 18:19

!
 
I've done quite a bit of para dropping with short circuits on similar aircraft and think people are being far too harsh here. I don't think she had anything like enough energy for a downwind join to the reciprocal runway. The only criticism from me would be that an aggressive bit of side slipping on short finals would have got her nicely on profile. I know some say never side slip with full flap but it actually works a treat as long as you remember to kick it off in time! IMHO a good job!

Maoraigh1 5th Nov 2021 19:40

Spelling
 
Impressingly calm. Landing looked O.K. My only experience of engine failures have been vapour look and card ice on take-off, with a long runway to land ahead. Elevator and rudder feel different without propwash. Were there high trees at the approach end also?

pilotmike 5th Nov 2021 20:12

Card ice - the very worst kind. Trumps all others. Plays tricks on you. You're on the button with that one. Good call! Pleased you raised it.

West Coast 5th Nov 2021 20:21


Originally Posted by double_barrel (Post 11137698)
Fair enough. But it looked very close to a disastrous outcome, anything to learn here?

At my airline and many others after each flight, after arriving at the gate/stand a debrief is conducted and I give the CFI the benefit of the doubt that she and her student did exactly that. During the debrief we also acknowledge the positives, and an engine failure (of your only engine) with no damage and no injuries is positively the best outcome.

Walk a mile….

ChrisVJ 5th Nov 2021 20:50

When I learned to fly 56 years ago all my practice forced landing on the airfield came in close over the fence and all were deemed satisfactory.

When I had an overheating engine on downwind leg 45 years later I aimed for the same and was lucky to be able to restart for a "blip" of engine to get me in. Later a more experienced pilot told me I should have aimed "a third of the way down the runway" for an engine out landing. Did not occur to me in the (over-)heat of the moment. Should be taught as standard practice.


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