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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

CBSITCB 3rd Feb 2019 15:34


Originally Posted by ATC Watcher (Post 10379042)
But Primary will not give you any altitude nor Rate of descent info, and the primary returns will also stop at a certain point , generally above 1000 ft due garbling , and where the antenna is located.

You talk a lot of sense, but permit me to correct a couple of specific points.

"Garbling" is strictly a secondary radar phenomenon - nothing to do with primary radar. It is where two separate SSR return pulse trains (from different aircraft) overlap at the receiver and hence interfere with one-another.

Also, primary radar base of cover is a lot less than 1,000'. Typically out to 50 or 60 miles it is actually below ground level, hence the ground clutter that is removed by processing (e.g. STC, MTI). See the typical primary radar vertical polar diagram below.

Of course, the actual surface conditions close to the radar will influence this, as you rightly say, but not as much so as to give a 1,000' base of cover.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....96a49459d0.png

Above The Clouds 3rd Feb 2019 15:37


Originally Posted by Sark (Post 10379036)
I know it probably wouldn’t have made a difference but the concentrated area of search today is further west and north than that being searched, certainly by sea, in the immediate hours after the accident.

Any thoughts


Actually the GEO Ocean Iii has positioned itself and is stationary at the intersection of all sonar tracks made today by the sonar ship FPV Morven. Its position is approx. 14nm bearing 300 degrees from the Casquets lighthouse.

SET fan 3rd Feb 2019 18:05

The CAA and the DGAC know as much as we do about illegal public transportation. Their problem is to find a way to prosecute with reasonable chances to succeed. On many occasions they lost in court. Judges seem to follow politicians : "we want more business, let's take the rules down". The victims are the public (in the present case a highly respected and beloved young footballer) and to some extent the pilots who accept to play such a dangerous game.
All around in GA newcomers apply this simple scheme : let's buy a plane, finance it, and find people to rent it so that we can pay the bank with their money. If the plane flies often enough, it will also pay for maintenance and fixed costs. When the loan is finished, let's sell the plane and buy another one to do the same again. Well, that implies OPERATING an airplane, which is something they don't want to do, so they leave it up to isolated pilots in desperate need to build up hours. That's how it works. It's been like this for ages but worked mainly in closed circles such as sports. This seems to apply to the accidented aircraft.
But now, thanks to the internet, the same scoundrels have found a way to do it on a large scale. Just check out "www.airaffaires.fr". The website is dedicated to users who become "members" of club on line. Aircraft owners are invited to register their airplanes, desperate pilots are also invited to join. Then it is the member's job to organize the trip. The website is very active and the management reports a recent 2.1 M€ fund raising. Needless to say, the founder owns airplanes that are advertised on the website and fly a lot. An N registered MALIBU and a D registered JET PROP DLX, none of which is a suitable transport airplane. Everyone knows their payload is ridiculous but no one is there to check so they obviously fly overloaded very, very often.
The DGAC is investigating but they fear that legal action may not end up well...
Let's hope that SALA's accident will wake up some people at EASA because there will be more occurrence if nothing is done to stop this madness. And the number of AOC holder will decrease rapidly.

DaveReidUK 3rd Feb 2019 18:50


Originally Posted by SET fan (Post 10379229)
The CAA and the DGAC know as much as we do about illegal public transportation. Their problem is to find a way to prosecute with reasonable chances to succeed. On many occasions they lost in court.

Do you have any evidence for that ?


srobarts 3rd Feb 2019 19:06

The search tracks of both survey vessels today.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a92e2f73c2.jpg

Pittsextra 3rd Feb 2019 19:12


Originally Posted by jumpseater (Post 10378924)


If as you suggest an AOC won’t prevent it, first para, what checks, balances and controls do you suggest? An AOC provides some top cover if adhered to for the operator or crew to cancel a trip. A PPL has none apart from the discipline of operating within the privileges of their license.

Your checks and balances in this event event should have been, licensed, proficiency, aircraft serviceability, airfield & navaid serviceability and weather as the basics. Surely that’s what’s required to make the go/no go decision? Access to all of those were available to the pilot and he decided to fly, why? Playing devils advocate, even if some of those basics listed above weren’t available, and a pilot still decided to fly, why?
What further checks and balances are you suggesting will have a meaningful impact, i.e. a ‘no fly’ decision, and who’s going to administer and pay for them?

my point is that we already have a great deal of checks and balances but if people are minded to break them then sometimes it ends badly. The issue is how things are enforced and how regulation is written with a rigor and attention such that it says what is intended. That way people who transgress can expect a consequence very many people know others who operate close to the wind and others find out usually when the tide has gone out and we read about it in an AAIB report. Ill leave you to read them for yourself however perhaps one start could be the warnings given about the man who died in his own AW139 in Norfolk. Why wasnt that dealt with years before?

helimutt 3rd Feb 2019 19:13


Originally Posted by Sark (Post 10379036)
I know it probably wouldn’t have made a difference but the concentrated area of search today is further west and north than that being searched, certainly by sea, in the immediate hours after the accident.

Any thoughts


That area, all the way up to, including east and south of the channel light vessel, was searched by 2 aircraft on the Tuesday morning following the accident. It was fairly windy on the Tuesday morning, and the sea wasn't 'calm'.

Widger 3rd Feb 2019 19:32

Deepest part of the Channel that area, close to the Hurd Deep. They will probably also find wartime munitions and low level nuclear waste which will lijely disrupt the search.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurd%27s_Deep

Alderney Hurd Deep radioactive waste 'not dangerous' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-guernsey-22198566


runway30 3rd Feb 2019 19:50

Is the Morven returning to base?

Above The Clouds 3rd Feb 2019 19:56


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10379329)
Is the Morven returning to base?

Yes not far off entering the St Peters port harbour, and GEO Ocean III is still stationary at the intersection of all the sonar tracks for Morven for today.

Chronus 3rd Feb 2019 20:02

How much does a PA46 piston cost to hire these days . More than a PA28 or a C152 I`d have thought. Could your average gas fitter afford it. So who paid for the hire, if no money changed hands who owed whom a favour. And who found the gas fitter and handed him the keys. There seems so far a trio involved in that ensemble. The footballers agent, his son and a pilot who appears to have done all sorts of dare-does with puddle jumpers. Out of this trio who is the one who is in the know with aeroplanes, must be the dare-do puddle jumper bloke.
There was a time when jumping at any chance to fly and build up hours towards that left seat regular job made sense and offered an opportunity of a career change. I cannot in this instance how it would have made sense to a 59 year old.

SET fan 3rd Feb 2019 20:05

Most of the cases where in the French Caribbeans where illegally transporting tourists within islands is routine. Almost all the procedures failed.

Above The Clouds 3rd Feb 2019 20:22


Originally Posted by Chronus (Post 10379342)
How much does a PA46 piston cost to hire these days . More than a PA28 or a C152 I`d have thought. Could your average gas fitter afford it. So who paid for the hire, if no money changed hands who owed whom a favour. And who found the gas fitter and handed him the keys. There seems so far a trio involved in that ensemble. The footballers agent, his son and a pilot who appears to have done all sorts of dare-does with puddle jumpers. Out of this trio who is the one who is in the know with aeroplanes, must be the dare-do puddle jumper bloke.
There was a time when jumping at any chance to fly and build up hours towards that left seat regular job made sense and offered an opportunity of a career change. I cannot in this instance how it would have made sense to a 59 year old.

I would hazard a guess for money as he is rumoured to have numerous CCJ's outstanding for debt.

runway30 3rd Feb 2019 20:27


Originally Posted by Chronus (Post 10379342)
How much does a PA46 piston cost to hire these days . More than a PA28 or a C152 I`d have thought. Could your average gas fitter afford it. So who paid for the hire, if no money changed hands who owed whom a favour. And who found the gas fitter and handed him the keys. There seems so far a trio involved in that ensemble. The footballers agent, his son and a pilot who appears to have done all sorts of dare-does with puddle jumpers. Out of this trio who is the one who is in the know with aeroplanes, must be the dare-do puddle jumper bloke.
There was a time when jumping at any chance to fly and build up hours towards that left seat regular job made sense and offered an opportunity of a career change. I cannot in this instance how it would have made sense to a 59 year old.

Let’s go for some accuracy. The footballer’s agent was not the footballer’s agent, he was the agent representing Nantes Football Club. He was the second hand car dealer and the footballer was the second hand car. And by the way, he isn’t even the football agent because he is not a fit and proper person, his son is the agent but his email release showed who was running the show. There is only one self confessed manipulator of people and what people think. He is not a novice to aviation, he knows about owning and operating aircraft and doesn’t seem to be the sort of person who would leave an intermediary to take care of the detail. I hope the investigators don’t discover that after his selective release of communications, everything else has been deleted. The communications between the parties on the Monday after the pilot was told that the flight was always intended to be at night will be very interesting.

Maoraigh1 3rd Feb 2019 20:33

When I first got an FAA 61.75 (in 1987) it was restricted to "day VFR only", even if I had a UK Night Qualification. Later the "day" restriction was lifted. I don't know if that showed on the accessable FAA database. He may have been FAA night legal.

S-Works 3rd Feb 2019 20:38


Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 (Post 10379377)
When I first got an FAA 61.75 (in 1987) it was restricted to "day VFR only", even if I had a UK Night Qualification. Later the "day" restriction was lifted. I don't know if that showed on the accessable FAA database. He may have been FAA night legal.

You can’t be FAA night legal on a 61.75 if the underlying licence specifically prohibits it.

Chronus 3rd Feb 2019 20:40


Originally Posted by Above The Clouds (Post 10379356)
I would hazard a guess for money as he is rumoured to have numerous CCJ's outstanding for debt.

If that`s the case, then it increases the likelihood someone else was paying for the hire of the aircraft, the fuel and landing charges. Cannot be certain about money for pilot services, I thought plumbers have been minting it ever since the property boom, you cannot get one for love or money. Makes me speculate, maybe he was offered the PA46 free if he would just turn up for 5 minutes and fix a leaky tap at that mansion of the agent mentioned at an earlier post.

runway30 3rd Feb 2019 20:46


Originally Posted by Chronus (Post 10379386)
If that`s the case, then it increases the likelihood someone else was paying for the hire of the aircraft, the fuel and landing charges. Cannot be certain about money for pilot services, I thought plumbers have been minting it ever since the property boom, you cannot get one for love or money. Makes me speculate, maybe he was offered the PA46 free if he would just turn up for 5 minutes and fix a leaky tap at that mansion of the agent mentioned at an earlier post.

Someone else did pay for the fuel and landing charges, they went on Henderson’s credit card, that has been admitted.

The Daily Mail made a pretty futile attempt to discover ownership of the aircraft. Of course they were stonewalled by SAC. However the Daily Mail made a statement, as fact, that ownership was transferred to SAC from Cool Flourish Ltd. as well as speculating that Cool Flourish are still the owners.

Silver Pegasus 3rd Feb 2019 21:07

Aircraft found.

Emiliano Sala: Missing Premier League footballer's plane found
http://news.sky.com/story/emiliano-s...found-11627529

srobarts 3rd Feb 2019 21:33

https://twitter.com/davidlmearns
Wreckage of the plane carrying Emiliano Sala and piloted by David Ibbotson was located early this morning by the FPV MORVEN. As agreed with the AAIB they moved the GEO OCEAN III over the position we provided them to visually identify the plane by ROV. https://twitter.com/hashtag/EmilianoSala?src=hash


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