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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

Timmy Tomkins 31st Jan 2019 14:13

Lots of stuff coming out a bit at a time, some of it may not be accurate but what is pretty clear is that the whole thing stinks to hi-heaven and some pretty serious investigation needs to be initiated into the grey world. Another example of how instant communications and neo-liberal economic principles have changed things and not for the better.

ShyTorque 31st Jan 2019 14:26

EASA has brought us many more rules, making things far more difficult (for those legally plying their trade) to make a living.
However, it seems to have left some large loopholes through lack of enforcement and thus made it easier for those wanting to circumvent both the rules and common sense.

Sam Rutherford 31st Jan 2019 14:30

ShropshirePilot Pretty awesome first post - welcome to Pprune!

ATC Watcher 31st Jan 2019 14:37


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 10376507)
EASA has brought us many more rules, making things far more difficult (for those legally plying their trade) to make a living.
However, it seems to have left some large loopholes through lack of enforcement and thus made it easier for those wanting to circumvent both the rules and common sense.

It always has been possible, before EASA and now, for a private flight to take anybody you want on board , as long at it is not a commercial operation . Indications seem to indicate this was not a commercial operation but a private one.
If something goes wrong on a private flight , it is always the PIC who is responsible, not the owner of the aircraft or "the usual pilot" .
the decision to fly VFR in IMC, or to file an IFR flight plan when you are not qualified lays only with the PIC and nobody else.
Now if you can prove money change hands and it was a commercial operation , there it is a very different story.

meleagertoo 31st Jan 2019 14:42

Surely still wouldn't have been legal if Henderson had flown it due to the FAA's strict rule of exactly equal share of costs (Sala told flight was 'free' to him), pilot put up in hotac at someone else's expense (valuable consideration/expenses) and inability to prove travel was for a common purpose.

Even if Mc Kay does own the aircraft and Henderson is his pilot it could only be a legal corporate flight if Henderson flew it, which he did not. Does Henderson have a FAA licence? Anyhoo, what of the status of the outbound leg on the Eclipse? Every chance that it was just as dodgy as the accident flight.

Finaly, how - just how did Henderson's id get checked at Nantes? We've been told by Ffrench authorities that three peoples' id were whecked for the flight but only 2 flew. This must be a significant part of the strory.

Sala's girlfriend's remark about the football mafia is telling too - sounds very much like she's seen and heard things from people she dislikes and mistrusts intensely and she believes them involved in htis 'charter". I wonder who that could possibly be?

ShropshirePilot 31st Jan 2019 15:03

Thanks! I do my best!
I'm not one to hide my views under a bushel so there will be more where that came from albeit probably not on this unhappy tale.
ATB

S-Works 31st Jan 2019 15:34


Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot (Post 10376470)
I am beginning to think "Truthseeker" is looking for a conspiracy where none exists. This is a forum, I thought, for pilots to discuss topical matters.

Here's what I understand and I don't think this is in question. Dave Ibbotson had flown a number of ferry flights. Including via Goose Bay/ Narsarsuaq - not a route for the faint hearted or inexperienced, forgetting the ticket in his hand for a moment. Yes, I know that is relevant but the ticket isn't the skill. I know an ex CFI who no longer flies but I'd have him sat next to me in preference to anyone else if I needed assistance on a flight.

There's been a lot of talk about SEP flying over the Channel. I do it a lot myself. Sometimes in rubbish weather sometimes not. According to all the stats I can find, SEP is pretty safe with (before this) 3 fatalities in 50 years between Channel Islands and UK (Wikipedia). I was in Alderney the day before and weather was not wonderful. Let's drop all the SEP part of the conversation.

Fact: Pilot was very low at night in poor viz with an Instrument approach inevitable at Cardiff. Not sure what the freeze level was but almost certainly around 3,000 feet. From Casquets, you'd expect to glide to Alderney coast from 2,300 feet, although probably not with heavy ice build up.

If this was a car crash, we'd be talking about bad luck or bad judgement or both. I'm afraid no matter what the rating of the Pilot, he self evidently made some poor choices and left a minimal margin for error. He either then got bad luck which often follows bad judgement or some of the following airframe icing (highly likely)/ Engine Failure or power loss/ Possible pilot incapacitation/ Leans or a combination of all three. That is not going to end well at any stage of a flight over land or sea.

Most of us would have stayed put that night and not ventured on that route in that aircraft at that time. And that's why the accident stats are as good as they are.

This is a very very sad tale of confidence exceeding capability.

Where is your evidence of Dibbo flying long distance ferry flights including trans Atlantic? I think you are confusing him with Dave Henderson who is a very experienced ferry pilot as you describe.

What we do have in the public domain now is a colour blind non instrument rated pilot flying at night in IMC which does certainly agree with your assessment of confidence exceeding ability.

red9 31st Jan 2019 15:36

Where does the colour blindness bit come from ?

runway30 31st Jan 2019 15:45


Originally Posted by S-Works (Post 10376576)
Where is your evidence of Dibbo flying long distance ferry flights including trans Atlantic? I think you are confusing him with Dave Henderson who is a very experienced ferry pilot as you describe.

What we do have in the public domain now is a colour blind non instrument rated pilot flying at night in IMC which does certainly agree with your assessment of confidence exceeding ability.

I think it is more a case of commercial pressure exceeding ability which is why how this flight was organised IS a safety related issue.

TRUTHSEEKER1 31st Jan 2019 15:56

I am beginning to think "ShropshirePilot" is not seeing the conspiracy where one exists. This is a forum where everyone can voice an opinion, so I will voice an opinion that ShropshirePilot doesn't know his Ibbotson from his Henderson :confused: I would very much doubt Ibbotson has completed any ferry flight via Goose Bay/Narsarsuaq in his own right? Careful wording of " in his own right " There is maybe an element of discrepancy in ShropshirePilot thinking that Ibbotson had undertaken a flight where the name Henderson was most likely on the paperwork?
So,from what I understand I think this is very much in question. WMcK thinks he has contracted Henderson to do the flying & when the ecrement hits the fan he finds out that Ibbotson was the pilot ! Now, if nothing had gone wrong I doubt it would have mattered nor would it have been an issue.
There is so much that is being discussed privately that cannot be discussed publicly on here, nor should it be discussed in the public domain whilst subterfuge or chicanery might be part & parcel of the investigation. It will be interesting to see how much supposition becomes fact & how much supposition is proven to be inconclusive.
If most of the suppositions do become facts it will not bring back Ibbotson or Sala but it will be a 'can of worms' for the people of both families & no doubt a long drawn out legal battle for the organisers of the flight & the agents involved.


Originally Posted by red9 (Post 10376577)
Where does the colour blindness bit come from ?

A very reliable source has mentioned that in a private conversation ( take that as 'reliable source' has concrete proof of that ).

ShropshirePilot 31st Jan 2019 16:12

I'm a pilot. I know other pilots, we are a fairly small community.

Mr Thruthseeker appears not to be one according to his published profile.

Suffice to say my source is good and reliable from within the flying fraternity.

My suspicion is that many people are relying on the Press. I am not a fan of Trump or his notion of "fake nooz" but when it comes to GA matters the press are somewhat half-witted.

I am not confusing the two named people.

Like I said, this is all very sad. And on that bombshell I am leaving this thread to others. QSY

runway30 31st Jan 2019 16:32


Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 (Post 10376593)
I am beginning to think "ShropshirePilot" is not seeing the conspiracy where one exists. This is a forum where everyone can voice an opinion, so I will voice an opinion that ShropshirePilot doesn't know his Ibbotson from his Henderson :confused: I would very much doubt Ibbotson has completed any ferry flight via Goose Bay/Narsarsuaq in his own right? Careful wording of " in his own right " There is maybe an element of discrepancy in ShropshirePilot thinking that Ibbotson had undertaken a flight where the name Henderson was most likely on the paperwork?
So,from what I understand I think this is very much in question. WMcK thinks he has contracted Henderson to do the flying & when the ecrement hits the fan he finds out that Ibbotson was the pilot ! Now, if nothing had gone wrong I doubt it would have mattered nor would it have been an issue.
There is so much that is being discussed privately that cannot be discussed publicly on here, nor should it be discussed in the public domain whilst subterfuge or chicanery might be part & parcel of the investigation. It will be interesting to see how much supposition becomes fact & how much supposition is proven to be inconclusive.
If most of the suppositions do become facts it will not bring back Ibbotson or Sala but it will be a 'can of worms' for the people of both families & no doubt a long drawn out legal battle for the organisers of the flight & the agents involved.



A very reliable source has mentioned that in a private conversation ( take that as 'reliable source' has concrete proof of that ).

It may well be that the evidence in the end does not pass the threshold but I would think that the police will investigate offences of manslaughter by negligence and conspiracy.

Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot (Post 10376608)
I'm a pilot. I know other pilots, we are a fairly small community.

Mr Thruthseeker appears not to be one according to his published profile.

Suffice to say my source is good and reliable from within the flying fraternity.

My suspicion is that many people are relying on the Press. I am not a fan of Trump or his notion of "fake nooz" but when it comes to GA matters the press are somewhat half-witted.

I am not confusing the two named people.

Like I said, this is all very sad. And on that bombshell I am leaving this thread to others. QSY

Shropshire, if you don’t have an AOC then don’t fly whole aircraft charters, if you don’t have a commercial licence then don’t fly for hire and reward and if your rating has expired then don’t use it. We do not have a system where you are only partly dangerous if you depend on skills that you previously had or wish you had.

Good Business Sense 31st Jan 2019 16:56


Originally Posted by ATC Watcher (Post 10376525)
It always has been possible, before EASA and now, for a private flight to take anybody you want on board , as long at it is not a commercial operation . Indications seem to indicate this was not a commercial operation but a private one.
If something goes wrong on a private flight , it is always the PIC who is responsible, not the owner of the aircraft or "the usual pilot" .
the decision to fly VFR in IMC, or to file an IFR flight plan when you are not qualified lays only with the PIC and nobody else.
Now if you can prove money change hands and it was a commercial operation , there it is a very different story.

Need to remember that until the WINGLY LAW was introduced sharing the cost of a flight wasn't even allowed - that's what I think they tried to introduce it but the horse bolted.

Also noticed over the last couple of days that new folk joining the conversation might have not picked up on the fact that it's an N REG aircraft so much of the recent discussion ref. EASA, Wingly, sharing, expenses, etc., does not really apply.

runway30 31st Jan 2019 17:10


Originally Posted by Good Business Sense (Post 10376646)
Need to remember that until the WINGLY LAW was introduced sharing the cost of a flight wasn't even allowed - that's what I think they tried to introduce it but the horse bolted.

Also noticed over the last couple of days that new folk joining the conversation might have not picked up on the fact that it's an N REG aircraft so much of the recent discussion ref. EASA, Wingly, sharing, expenses, etc., does not really apply.

Good reminder GBS, there is no way in which this flight could meet the FAA definition of common purpose. As soon as the McKays made a statement that they did not own the aircraft and did not select pilot or aircraft, even though they have amended that to selected a different pilot, there is no way that this flight could have been conducted legally. The aircraft is an orphan, we thus have a very unusual situation, ten days after the accident where we have no idea who the aircraft owner is.

TRUTHSEEKER1 31st Jan 2019 17:18


Originally Posted by meleagertoo (Post 10376529)
Surely still wouldn't have been legal if Henderson had flown it due to the FAA's strict rule of exactly equal share of costs (Sala told flight was 'free' to him), pilot put up in hotac at someone else's expense (valuable consideration/expenses) and inability to prove travel was for a common purpose.

Even if Mc Kay does own the aircraft and Henderson is his pilot it could only be a legal corporate flight if Henderson flew it, which he did not. Does Henderson have a FAA licence? Anyhoo, what of the status of the outbound leg on the Eclipse? Every chance that it was just as dodgy as the accident flight.

Finaly, how - just how did Henderson's id get checked at Nantes? We've been told by Ffrench authorities that three peoples' id were whecked for the flight but only 2 flew. This must be a significant part of the strory.

Sala's girlfriend's remark about the football mafia is telling too - sounds very much like she's seen and heard things from people she dislikes and mistrusts intensely and she believes them involved in htis 'charter". I wonder who that could possibly be?

I would think it is academic as to who was paying the pilot in this instance, it could be as simple as WMcK asking his personal pilot to fly someone to & fro, whether WMcK has his personal pilot on a retainer is a question that I suspect has already been asked. Now if the personal pilot then subcontracts the work to someone else is another question that the person giving out the job needs to be answerable to, it would seem the personal pilot of WMcK is the one who was paying the costs for the actual pilot from his funds, I guess another question is " Who gave the personal pilot the funds to give to the actual pilot? " Someone was certainly the Paymaster & it is either the McKay's or Henderson himself.
Where it gets messy is if WMcK thinks he has paid his personal pilot to do the flying, if the personal pilot then gives the work out to a subcontractor unbeknown to WMcK it then becomes a case of the buck stops with the personal pilot. The HOTAC really doesn't matter one iota because whilst Dave Ibbotson was away from home he had to stay somewhere & he wasn't gaining financially from the HOTAC charges.

It is assumed that Dave Henderson does have an FAA Licence, I suspect his details have been pulled from the FAA Database because there isn't any visible records that show him being FAA licenced with a UK address but that isn't to say he isn't one of the US addressed David Henderson's in the database.

The Eclipse flights aren't a bone of contention, they weren't the accident flight & were invariably operated by IR pilots ( maybe DH was in the Eclipse on those flights in some capacity? ) It seems apparent that the Eclipse was a 'pick up & go' where it arrived in Nantes & Emiliano Sala was rumoured as being escorted to the aircraft & then flown to Cardiff so the crew might have never gone landside at Nantes?

The 3 sets of ID's is an area where a lot of questions are being asked, the big question is " Was there 3 different people seen by the French Airport officials or were 3 ID's shown by 2 different people? " Now any French Airport official would instantly recognise Emiliano Sala but would they really know who the other person/s showing them ID's are?
If 3 males were standing in front of the Airport officials that would explain the 3 ID's but if there were only 2 males in front of them I would guess they would only see 2 ID's ?
Now supposition could be that 3 ID's were shown during the transit through the airport but not to the same airport officials?
I have myself shown an ID card as identification at one part of an airport & then used a different ID at another part of the airport. This could be my passport at the first point of contact & then my pilots licence at the second point of contact. Both my ID's show my name clearly...... Let's play devils advocate here, What if the first ID was the pilots passport at point one & then at point two he showed the ID in the form of the Pilots licence of AN.Other who has an IR so he could file IFR? it might be a bizarre thought but it would explain the 3rd ID being seen & also feasible to cover the initial filing of an IFR Flightplan. I am not saying that is what happened but it is plausible.

Most of the issue is " Where was Dave Henderson whilst all this was going on? " Was he the 3rd person or was he never in Nantes? It seems categoric that his ID was checked by some Airport official, it would be useful to know if it was his passport or his pilots licence or perhaps his driving licence? I doubt very much it was his Library card or his Starbucks loyalty card or even his credit/debit card they saw?

red9 31st Jan 2019 17:36

TRUTHSEEKER1 DH is recorded as saying he hasnt been to Nantes for more than a year

CBSITCB 31st Jan 2019 17:45


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10376666)
ten days after the accident where we have no idea who the aircraft owner is.

"Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited" see post #234.

There was a personal bio of of Ms Keely on a company website stating she is a pilot but it was removed a few days ago. Strange coincidence...

ATC Watcher 31st Jan 2019 17:49

TRUTHSEEKER1

It seems categoric that his ID was checked by some Airport official,
Where did you get that " categoric" from ? news media ?

TRUTHSEEKER1 31st Jan 2019 18:08


Originally Posted by red9 (Post 10376700)
TRUTHSEEKER1 DH is recorded as saying he hasnt been to Nantes for more than a year

I have read that myself so it now opens up an investigation into how his ID was visibly checked by a French Airport official? If it has been submitted as an ID I think it is fair to say that it wasn't Emiliano Sala who submitted it as his ID so it to some degree points towards the Pilot having mistakenly shown an incorrect ID at some point of his transit through the airport?

That can be the only feasible explanation? Now it is apparent that Dave Henderson has flown the accident aircraft previously so maybe, just maybe, he had dropped his ID in the aircraft & the accident pilot had also dropped his own ID in the aircraft & whilst looking for his saw an identical ID to his & picked it up thinking it was his ID. ( highly unlikely, but stranger things have happened before )

I will put on record that I was in Cannes with an aircraft where I know I was there because my co-pilot has pictures of me messing about in the hotel pool, as far as Cannes Airport are concerned ' I wasn't there because they only checked my co-pilots ID ' when we passed through the airside gate.
So I could quite easily say " I wasn't in Cannes " even though I know I was :D

tescoapp 31st Jan 2019 18:08

General comment I have never been on the GA apron in the departure airport.

Its more than likely they needed to get a "visitors pass" and escorted to the aircraft on the apron.


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