PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Accidents and Close Calls (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls-139/)
-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

strake 26th Jan 2019 15:45


the exchange is noted as being translated from the original French, which accounts for its unnatural feel perhaps?
Here in France, any reporting on the transcript is clear that it comes from UK sources. I think that means that Willie McKay released it to the UK press having gained it from his son Jack who plays for Cardiff and having spent a considerable time in France, probably speaks French. I also think the transcript has been tidied-up to make it understandable because any text exchanges I happen to see between my kid's and friends are full of French colloquialisms!
The media here are also stressing the point that McKay has clearly stated that neither he nor his sons (two players and an agent) have any connection to the aircraft in question. They also state that they have contacted one person in the past, who runs an aircraft consultancy, to arrange flights around Europe which is exactly what they did this time.
Finally, while this incident is not getting the same level of coverage in French light aviation forums as it is in the UK, I have noted a couple of comments raising the question of how a passport from someone not actually in France was scanned or photocopied in Nantes

jumpseater 26th Jan 2019 16:28

Whilst acknowledging Wingly are not involved in the incident flight I did a quick check on their FB feed and found a piece by Simon Calder re how useful this service is. On 24th July 2017 Wingly responded to at least two separate questions on the minimum hours question , with the reply that A-B flights required the pilots to have a minimum of 100 hours. I wonder if there’s a lower requirement for A-A flights? no one seems to have asked at that time. What is clear is no one at Wingly is monitoring their own ‘procedures’.


Raymond Dome 26th Jan 2019 17:21

Is it just me that finds general aviation totally depressing? You read today's accident reports and they are exactly the same as the accident reports of 30 or 40 years ago. The same idiots doing the same stupid things with the same inevitable results. The same over-confident pilots overestimating their own limited abilities. The same petty crooks running the same dodgy charter operations. The same spineless authorities preferring to spend their time nitpicking reputable operators rather than enforcing the law against the real rogues etc etc.
All the while innocent people are losing their lives as a result.
Today, on this thread, I have learned for the first time of the existence of flight-sharing apps. God help us!



Gurnard 26th Jan 2019 17:36

Contradictions...
This whole episode is riddled with contradictions. Mark McKay originally admitted arranging the flight, now Willie McKay says he did!
A few other points raise questions:-
1. Why did the a/c depart Cardiff for Guernsey at 12.15 on Saturday 19th, rather than flying direct to NTS? The return was planned as a direct flight.
2. Did it actually land in GCI?
3. How many POB were there when it left Cardiff?
4. Knowing that the passenger flew into Cardiff earlier (Friday) on Eclipse N531EA which regularly visits Guernsey, was a crew member from that a/c simply being given transport there?
5. Presumably DI was flying the a/c on Saturday as noted from his comment about his skills being a little rusty, but was he the sole crew member?
6. We are told the flight from Nantes to Cardiff on Monday was delayed by up to 10 hours, but the transcript of the messages sent to and from the passenger reveal that all along he was wanting a return to Cardiff on Monday evening - not earlier in the day. How can this contradiction be explained?
7. Apparently his "luggage" was photographed. Has anyone seen the picture to know if it was excessive?
8. Was extra fuel put on board contributing the excessive weight?
9. Might the additional weight have caused only two to travel on the fated flight rather than three? (We are still unclear as to the whereabouts of DH on Monday.)

alfaaloop 26th Jan 2019 17:51

I was totally unaware of Wingly until reading this thread so just had a look. To take one example, someone advertising their sight seeing service with 70 hours TT experience on a PA28. To Joe Public this may sound a lot and they may happily jump in trusting their pilot to SAFELY conduct the flight. However, anyone with aviation knowledge would realise how little experience this pilot has and could make their decisions based on that. I think the main issue is that people think a qualified pilot is just that, without any understanding of what exactly they’re qualified to do and handle, and more importantly not to do or handle.
I hope the tragic events of late bring some awareness to the people using these sites and services, and that the quality of the pilot can vary hugely.

Arkroyal 26th Jan 2019 18:12


Originally Posted by Gurnard (Post 10371665)
Contradictions...
This whole episode is riddled with contradictions. Mark McKay originally admitted arranging the flight, now Willie McKay says he did!
A few other points raise questions:-
1. Why did the a/c depart Cardiff for Guernsey at 12.15 on Saturday 19th, rather than flying direct to NTS? The return was planned as a direct flight.
2. Did it actually land in GCI?
3. How many POB were there when it left Cardiff?
4. Knowing that the passenger flew into Cardiff earlier (Friday) on Eclipse N531EA which regularly visits Guernsey, was a crew member from that a/c simply being given transport there?
5. Presumably DI was flying the a/c on Saturday as noted from his comment about his skills being a little rusty, but was he the sole crew member?
6. We are told the flight from Nantes to Cardiff on Monday was delayed by up to 10 hours, but the transcript of the messages sent to and from the passenger reveal that all along he was wanting a return to Cardiff on Monday evening - not earlier in the day. How can this contradiction be explained?
7. Apparently his "luggage" was photographed. Has anyone seen the picture to know if it was excessive?
8. Was extra fuel put on board contributing the excessive weight?
9. Might the additional weight have caused only two to travel on the fated flight rather than three? (We are still unclear as to the whereabouts of DH on Monday.)

Erm...... what excessive weight?

what next 26th Jan 2019 18:26

Hello!


Originally Posted by Raymond Dome (Post 10371654)
Is it just me that finds general aviation totally depressing?

I know what you mean and you are absolutely right, but "GA" is much more than those private flights (someone already pointed this out some pages back). NetJets, just to name one of the most prominent ones, and lots of other commercial operators of charter airplanes operate by the same standards as airlines and have a similar safety record. Many companies have (private in the sense of the legislation) corporate flying departments that operate at an even higher level. All these are "GA". In my view that is the safest way to fly - otherwise multi-billion corporations would not allow their top executives to use them.

Unfortunately accidents like the one we are discussing here discredit general aviation as a whole by assigning attributes like "unsafe", "dangerous", "cowboy" and "lethal" to lightplane operation. My personal consequence of this accident will be to report any such flight I am aware of to the authorities in the future. So far whistleblowing has never been my thing, but I earn my living as a "GA" pilot and I will do everything I can to prevent operations like the one that led to this accident to compromise my professional environment.

Gurnard 26th Jan 2019 18:36


Originally Posted by Arkroyal (Post 10371698)


Erm...... what excessive weight?

What I meant was - a lot of luggage (the passenger was "moving house") and extra fuel in view of wx might have resulted in the other crew member being unable to fly because of weight restrictions, leaving DI to operate alone.

Auxtank 26th Jan 2019 18:41


Originally Posted by what next (Post 10371711)
My personal consequence of this accident will be to report any such flight I am aware of to the authorities in the future. So far whistleblowing has never been my thing, but I earn my living as a "GA" pilot and I will do everything I can to prevent operations like the one that led to this accident to compromise my professional environment.

And THAT is the takeaway from this very unfortunate event.
Don't rely on regs, CAA, EASA, whatever.
If you see it, report it! to the TWR - if there is one, then to NATS, CAA, etc. We've seen in this thread that certain individuals have taken action when they've been suspicious that someone is exercising privileges of a license to which they are not entitled so to do. Even if you have to call the Police. Keep them on the ground until doubt is dispelled.

Time to clean up this town and preserve GA for those for which it's an abiding passion and for those for whom it's also a legitimate commercial venture with all checks and balances in order.

This is our manor these unscrupulous individuals are rotting up for the future and causing untold upset and pain in the mean time.

DaveReidUK 26th Jan 2019 18:43


Originally Posted by meleagertoo (Post 10371467)
I could point you to a G reg airline accident involving a nosegear-less landing with pax on a scheduled international service.
Or rather, I couldn't, as no accident report was filed.

Would you care to share ?


Arkroyal 26th Jan 2019 18:49


Originally Posted by Gurnard (Post 10371718)
What I meant was - a lot of luggage (the passenger was "moving house") and extra fuel in view of wx might have resulted in the other crew member being unable to fly because of weight restrictions, leaving DI to operate alone.

Iff there was ‘another crew member’. We don’t know.

And if the baggage was of significant weight. We don’t know yet. I suspect the photo of said baggage which was part of the text stream will not see the light of day.

2unlimited 26th Jan 2019 18:52

7:43pm - Jack McKay: "My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you

I struggle to see how McKay can not be legally responsible towards both Sala's family and Cardiff.
Agents often control all aspects of a players life, Sala was severally let down by his agent in my opinion.

beamer 26th Jan 2019 19:10

Despite flying for 42 years, I had never heard of Wingly before glancing at this thread. Now I see 70hr PPL holders offering their services for sightseeing flights.....my mind, well and truly boggled !

artschool 26th Jan 2019 19:14


Originally Posted by beamer (Post 10371746)
Despite flying for 42 years, I had never heard of Wingly before glancing at this thread. Now I see 70hr PPL holders offering their services for sightseeing flights.....my mind, well and truly boggled !

why does everyone continue to mention wingly, when so far there is not a shred of evidence that wingly had anything to do with the crash?

Auxtank 26th Jan 2019 19:16


Originally Posted by artschool (Post 10371749)
why does everyone continue to mention wingly, when so far there is not a shred of evidence that wingly had anything to do with the crash?

He's not referring to the accident. He's making a comment about what he's learned about Wingly FROM this thread.
Don't forget - it's a discussion thread.

artschool 26th Jan 2019 19:17


Originally Posted by 2unlimited (Post 10371732)
7:43pm - Jack McKay: "My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you

I struggle to see how McKay can not be legally responsible towards both Sala's family and Cardiff.
Agents often control all aspects of a players life, Sala was severally let down by his agent in my opinion.

because Sala was a grown man and could make decisions for himself? by all accounts Sala declined Cardiffs offer to arrange a commercial flight.

Sir Niall Dementia 26th Jan 2019 19:20


Originally Posted by 2unlimited (Post 10371732)
7:43pm - Jack McKay: "My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you

I struggle to see how McKay can not be legally responsible towards both Sala's family and Cardiff.
Agents often control all aspects of a players life, Sala was severally let down by his agent in my opinion.


And ignorance is no defence in law.

SND

ShyTorque 26th Jan 2019 19:20

Sala possibly thought he was getting a better service by flying in a chartered aircraft than taking a scheduled flight. Therein lies the problem.

Auxtank 26th Jan 2019 19:23

This ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

2unlimited 26th Jan 2019 19:34


Originally Posted by artschool (Post 10371752)
because Sala was a grown man and could make decisions for himself? by all accounts Sala declined Cardiffs offer to arrange a commercial flight.

It does not seem he had enough information or was in a position to make an informed decision. McKay offered him an option, however how was he to know it was with SEP with a PPL Pilot?
With a pilot who was clearly out of his depth.

There is a reason there is a difference between CPL and PPL.


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:25.


Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.