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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

TRUTHSEEKER1 26th Jan 2019 13:29

The Cessna 421B is G-BBUJ which was damaged at Portimao before August 2000. It still sits there at Portimao

runway30 26th Jan 2019 13:37


Originally Posted by BigEndBob (Post 10371446)
Never realised how that Wingly thing operated, but seeing that link above, the whole concept should be shut down.
And to think of the discussions there have been and fuss about what a trial flight might be.

Also how would insurance get on with the crash flight, are Cardiff city now £15m out of pocket, could cause the club to close.
This could be one of the most complex insurance and big payouts ever for one crash.
What if the players family go for all and sundry.

As I posted earlier, the club are saying that they will be about £14m. out of pocket even after insurance and are obviously looking for someone to take legal action against.

I looked at the standard Lloyd’s Accident Policy.

Hazardous Occupations, Sports, Pastimes or Activities
If you engage in any active occupation, sport or pastime or other activity which has a hazardous nature you should disclose it to us. If you are in any doubt as to what constitutes hazardous and if you are covered for such activity please contact your broker.

What is not covered (applicable to Sections one and two)
This contract of insurance does not cover claims in any way caused or contributed to by:
1. war, whether war be declared or not, hostilities or any act of war or civil war;
2. the actual or threatened malicious use of pathogenic or poisonous biological or chemical materials;
3. nuclear reaction, nuclear radiation or radioactive contamination;
4. your engaging in or taking part in armed forces service or operations;
5. your engaging in flying of any kind other than as a passenger;

So it will depend on an interpretation of Hazardous Occupations and whether they still consider you a passenger on a flight that is unlicensed.

red9 26th Jan 2019 13:44


Originally Posted by meleagertoo (Post 10371430)
Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

Yes - I think that about sums it up

meleagertoo 26th Jan 2019 13:49


Originally Posted by CBSITCB (Post 10371233)
Interesting that it was indeed G-reg - makes the lack of accident reports more intriguing.

I could point you to a G reg airline accident involving a nosegear-less landing with pax on a scheduled international service.
Or rather, I couldn't, as no accident report was filed.
Well, one was, but it wasn't a paper one (the airline never troubled to pass that on to the CAA.)
And the result?
Nada. Zip. Nothing. And no official record of the event.

In terms of enforcement the CAA are a sleepy poodle with chocolate teeth and rubber balls.
I doubt that has changed in the not too many years since that occurred.

Daysleeper 26th Jan 2019 13:51


Originally Posted by BigEndBob (Post 10371446)
Never realised how that Wingly thing operated, but seeing that link above, the whole concept should be shut down.
And to think of the discussions there have been and fuss about what a trial flight might be.

Also how would insurance get on with the crash flight, are Cardiff city now £15m out of pocket, could cause the club to close.
This could be one of the most complex insurance and big payouts ever for one crash.
What if the players family go for all and sundry.

Was mentioned earlier but according to the Telegraph Cardiff's liabilities associated with the transfer are more like £30 Million including £2.5 million in fees to agents. They believe half (well 16 mil) is covered by the previously mentioned lloyds policy though I'd be fascinated to know what the definition of "passenger" is on that policy.

Edit Runway30 beat me to it... do you have any more detail on "passenger"?

ChickenHouse 26th Jan 2019 13:54


Originally Posted by meleagertoo (Post 10371430)
Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

That, is a big elephant and it is being discussed for years now.
In contrast to FAAs strict 'Don't even think policy', Europe has always been attracted by ideas of private 'special networks' and kept that not confined to Sicily. I doubt that'll change anytime soon. Just to throw some petrol to the campfire, Brexit could give the opportunity for CAA to adopt a more FAA-like approach ...

runway30 26th Jan 2019 13:55

Daysleeper, I can’t find it defined anywhere but I’m sure that a Lloyd’s broker could tell us.

Timmy Tomkins 26th Jan 2019 14:00


Originally Posted by Suvarnabhumi (Post 10371098)
Wow, GA in the UK has changed immeasurably with "Globalisation" since I was last involved there 22 years ago.

So all I have to do now is pop over to Florida and buy a thrashed out "complex single" eg a 1984 Malibu, own it through some offshore company trust type setup, keep it on on N reg, get my FAA PPL while I'm there, make some connections in UK with "Fixer/Agent" types/wealthy circles , and I'm good to go, International "charters", sorry , I mean doing a mate a favour/cost sharing , including overwater, night , winter, single engine flights. I'll be quids in.

CAA have really dropped the ball.

My thoughts exactly. I was an air taxi pilot in the 1980s before going into the airlines and I never heard of anything like this. We were a 2 aircraft operation and had our own ops inspector (subsequently a very senior person in the CAA and very professional) could cost cutting have anything to do with the hands off approach now?

meleagertoo 26th Jan 2019 14:08


Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins (Post 10371479)
My thoughts exactly. I was an air taxi pilot in the 1980s before going into the airlines and I never heard of anything like this.

Much the same as me. I knew this sort of thing happened too but had no idea it was so apparently widespread

runway30 26th Jan 2019 14:12

I don’t know whether Cool Flourish Ltd. owned this aircraft or not because I can’t find the database in the US that others have quoted. However two Chartered Accountants acquiring 2 £1 shares from other nominees leads to the suspicion that they are themselves nominees and are just another layer obscuring the ownership of this company. Is this really the lack of transparency that we want in air transport? Uncovering the ownership of the aircraft would probably give more answers as to what has gone on here. Maybe when we get into charges/financial claims, someone will start talking?

3wheels 26th Jan 2019 14:15


Originally Posted by meleagertoo (Post 10371430)
Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

Normalised Deviation. I don’t think there has ever been such a good example.

CBSITCB 26th Jan 2019 14:16

Regarding the 'transcript' in post #524


Originally Posted by diffident (Post 10371027)
Doesn't really reveal anything new any of that lot to be fair, other than Emiliano Sala being able to command a great level of writing English considering he's from South America and played his football in France. I haven't heard any full interviews with him in the British media so he may have a great standard of English, but he only spoke Portuguese on the released tape recording from the night. I might be looking at it too deeply and being too suspicious, but something doesn't seem right to me.

I wonder what is the source of the transcript? It doesn’t have the appearance of a character-for-character copy from some sort of communication device (even if subsequently tidied-up).

Could it just be an after-the-fact subjective summary of the conversations? It does seem to have very good grammar and punctuation and be a bit ‘wordy’ for a series of text messages.

It just popped-up on Sky News four days after the event as “Text messages released between Sala and Jack McKay”. Released by whom - does anyone know?

Chronus 26th Jan 2019 14:18

The remarkable feature of this accident is the fact that a high value soccer player was being transported in a single engine aircraft, at night over water, by a 59 year old wannabe pilot plumber.
I do wonder in making the arrangements for the flight as to what sort of representations were made regarding the owner, operator and pilot. Whichever way you look at the picture, it is grim for all who have been involved. Some very serious legal consequences are inevitable.

runway30 26th Jan 2019 14:24


Originally Posted by CBSITCB (Post 10371498)
Regarding the 'transcript' in post #524



I wonder what is the source of the transcript? It doesn’t have the appearance of a character-for-character copy from some sort of communication device (even if subsequently tidied-up).

Could it just be an after-the-fact subjective summary of the conversations? It does seem to have very good grammar and punctuation and be a bit ‘wordy’ for a series of text messages.

It just popped-up on Sky News four days after the event as “Text messages released between Sala and Jack McKay”. Released by whom - does anyone know?

It has been released by the McKays as part of the ‘Nothing to do with me’ campaign. It has clearly been edited/part redacted.

HarryMann 26th Jan 2019 14:26


Originally Posted by CBSITCB (Post 10371498)
Regarding the 'transcript' in post #524



I wonder what is the source of the transcript? It doesn’t have the appearance of a character-for-character copy from some sort of communication device (even if subsequently tidied-up).

Could it just be an after-the-fact subjective summary of the conversations? It does seem to have very good grammar and punctuation and be a bit ‘wordy’ for a series of text messages.

It just popped-up on Sky News four days after the event as “Text messages released between Sala and Jack McKay”. Released by whom - does anyone know?


Looks very typical to me.... and very credible too. Not sure how brief you get but much less and as we so often find, the content can be misconstrued or needs another text to clarify! Then there's the good manners aspect of not being rudely too brief.
No I doubt a journo wouldn't want to say exactly how they came across it though. But I'd put a fiver on it being pretty near the mark.

DaveReidUK 26th Jan 2019 14:33


Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 (Post 10371449)
The Cessna 421B is G-BBUJ which was damaged at Portimao before August 2000. It still sits there at Portimao

Presumably that's the incident referred to in the company report (although that states that it happened in FY2001/02).

It sounds like the aircraft never returned to the UK - it was cancelled from the UK register in September 2007 as "transferred to Portugal" and restored in June 2011, now owned by Portimao-based Aero VIP.

Its status has been "No flight" since June 2015, suggesting that it was flying prior to that.

helimutt 26th Jan 2019 14:48


Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia (Post 10371448)
Has always been so, and in the rotary sector you'll probably find the worst offenders, one of whom cheerfully posts about it on the Rotor Heads forum. In terms of pachyderm size we're roughly at woolly mammoth, and around the same age.

SND


ie the elephant wouldn't fit into a room!!!!! And I know who you mean on Rotorheads....:)

Sir Niall Dementia 26th Jan 2019 14:59


Originally Posted by helimutt (Post 10371531)
ie the elephant wouldn't fit into a room!!!!! And I know who you mean on Rotorheads....:)

Thought you might!

SND

Expressflight 26th Jan 2019 15:01


Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 (Post 10371449)
The Cessna 421B is G-BBUJ which was damaged at Portimao before August 2000. It still sits there at Portimao

That aircraft used to be on my company's AOC in the 1980s, although we flew it almost exclusively for the automotive company that owned it. In light of the amazing revelations appearing here regarding non AOC 'charters' I'm pleased not to be in the business now. The CAA's attitude even in those days was far from satisfactory in this regard. We regularly flew a local company's executives from SEN to GLA in an Aztec and one day I was processing some other pax in the terminal at SEN. I noticed these clients there apparently chatting to a freelance pilot we often used and who had, in fact flown them under our AOC previously. It turned out they were flying to GLA in an Aztec this pilot had hired for them and they said "well, it's a lot cheaper to pay him the hire cost and for his services than using your company". I pointed out that his CPL did not allow him to offer this type of service and that their insurance could well be invalid if they went ahead and something went wrong. They shrugged this off so I phoned the CAA, told them the story and suggested they ramp check the aircraft at GLA. As it would be day stopping at GLA they would have plenty of time to organise this but they never did and I heard nothing more from them; no follow up at all. Obviously things haven't changed for the better since the 1980s.

Redredrobin 26th Jan 2019 15:18

In the BBC story covering the texts, in Sport, not News

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47013474

the exchange is noted as being translated from the original French, which accounts for its unnatural feel perhaps?


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