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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

rr84c 23rd Jan 2019 18:18

We donít need more regulation. We just need the regulation enforced / people to realise that people need to be appropriately licensed including for safety reasons.

22/04 23rd Jan 2019 18:20

Mentioned a long way back but my understanding is that it isn't illegal on a UK reg. aircraft anyway to still have a mode A/C transponder. If you replace it however you must replace it with a Mode S unit
.

EddieHeli 23rd Jan 2019 18:31

Do we know for certain that exploitation or rule breaking has occurred here. It seems that everything said on this so far is pure conjecture. He might have had a CPL if he was doing regular para dropping. It is entirely possible that this was a properly conducted commercial flight. It is also possible it was a legally conducted private flight. It is possible that he was not that familiar with flying this particular aircraft in IMC conditions, and he could have become overwhelmed with icing in an unfamiliar aircraft, but we don't know anything for certain other than the aircraft is missing. He could have had a heart attack for all we know, or the passenger may have had a panic attack and distracted the pilot. This is all pure speculation of course, like everything else mentioned here so far.
All the people suggesting tighter regulation might want to be certain of what, if any, regulations had been broken here, and how tightening them up would have changed things. I do not believe that regulations, broken or otherwise, have contributed to the unfortunate outcome. There are plenty of aircraft piloted by two commercial pilots on properly chartered flights that have also ended tragically, and also Commercial Air Transport journeys don't have s 100% success rate.

what next 23rd Jan 2019 18:35


Originally Posted by EddieHeli (Post 10368617)
It is entirely possible that this was a properly conducted commercial flight.

With a privately owned, American registered aircraft between two European countries?

rr84c 23rd Jan 2019 18:41


Originally Posted by what next (Post 10368621)
With a privately owned, American registered aircraft between two European countries?

...with no valid US CPL or IR

Echo Romeo 23rd Jan 2019 18:43


Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2 (Post 10368483)
It's upsetting to think that I was sitting down to enjoy a nice meal, with a brand new light business jet sitting on the apron, while this was all unfolding for him.
A few thousand more £ and he'd be training with his mates in Cardiff right now. Footballers are regular customers of mine.
We were certainly available at time.

If the agent organised this for him, he needs to be strung up.
​​​​​​

​​​​

It wasnít Cardiff City FC, it certainly wouldnít have been the player. I guess it would difficult to arrive at any other conclusion.

EESDL 23rd Jan 2019 18:53

BBC News reports that player - or his agent - arranged the flight himself.
this whole tragic event stinks

oggers 23rd Jan 2019 19:17

The known facts are bad enough: SE piston over the sea at night in engine and airframe icing conditions during the winter with a passenger on board. This alone tells me all I need to know about the pilot. He was an accident waiting to happen. We will know in due course the licence status and legality of the flight. Speculation is a waste of time. It doesn't make the decision to go any more reasonable. What is legal is not always wise - and that is not an argument for tighter regs, it is an argument for exercising good judgement. Clearly lacking in this flight.

strake 23rd Jan 2019 19:21

Sala's agent Mark McKay, son of Willie Mcay, also an agent:



Sala's agent, Mark McKay, made his first statement since the footballer went missing, saying that he wanted to "express my sadness and that of my families" over the "tragic events".

"I knew Emiliano well, he was a wonderful person and I count myself fortunate to have known him," he said.

Mr Mckay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family".

He said he began looking into arranging a private flight to take him to Nantes after his medical and signing in Cardiff on Saturday, at the footballer's request.

The plane was meant to remain in Nantes until he was due to return to the Welsh city on Tuesday, he added.


G-MILF 23rd Jan 2019 19:22


Originally Posted by rr84c (Post 10368629)

...with no valid US CPL or IR

As someone else has already stated above, there are only two Dave Ibbotson's in the FAA Airman's Database, both are PPL's.

Auxtank 23rd Jan 2019 19:24


Originally Posted by EESDL (Post 10368640)
BBC News reports that player - or his agent - arranged the flight himself.
this whole tragic event stinks

Well, let's be the professionals here and not jump to conclusions based on media reports - after all even Aunty Beeb is a media outlet - and these days - with journalistic integrity beginning to resemble the rest of them.

Let's go on the facts as they emerge and draw our conclusions in a manner respectful of AAIB process (as well as respective French and Argentinian counterparts) and the high standards of stewardship that this forum is well capable of and has excelled at in the past.

In a word - pause. There has been a tragedy with loss of life, circumstances that lead up to the accident are still unfolding. Nobody's officially broken the law yet. Situation on-going.

Auxtank

clareprop 23rd Jan 2019 19:30


Well, let's be the professionals here and not jump to conclusions based on media reports - after all even Aunty Beeb is a media outlet - and these days - with journalistic integrity beginning to resemble the rest of them.

Let's go on the facts as they emerge and draw our conclusions in a manner respectful of AAIB process (as well as respective French and Argentinian counterparts) and the high standards of stewardship that this forum is well capable of and has excelled at in the past.

In a word - pause. There has been a tragedy with loss of life, circumstances that lead up to the accident are still unfolding. Nobody's officially broken the law yet. Situation on-going.

Auxtank
Sorry but not on this occasion. Too many of us here have the experience to look at the basic facts on the aircraft and operator as reported and immediately see a senseless waste of life.

runway30 23rd Jan 2019 19:32

Now it does start to get murky. My questions would be
1) Who did Mark McKay approach for what now appears to be a charter?
2) Was the owner of the aircraft approached or a 3rd party who arranged aircraft and pilot?
3) Did the aircraft owner check the qualifications of the pilot before releasing the aircraft?
4) Did money change hands?

Strumble Head 23rd Jan 2019 19:33

Am I alone in finding that details such as 'N'-registered aircraft being operated in UK and Europe with unsuspecting passengers on a PPL are bringing back unhappy memories of Graham Hill and his last flight?
AAIB Report on accident to Piper PA-23 N6645Y

DaveReidUK 23rd Jan 2019 19:39


He said he began looking into arranging a private flight to take him to Nantes after his medical and signing in Cardiff on Saturday, at the footballer's request.

Mr McKay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family".
So that's all OK, then ...

jumpseater 23rd Jan 2019 19:40

The finding of this aircraft/pilot for hire interests me. If you type simple search requests into Google, the results donít lead you to this type of aircraft, and take you to the websites of widely known operators eg netjets. Iím in the UK and using a Uk biased search engine. To find similar aircraft to the incident subject aircraft and crew appears with an online search to be very difficult, Iíve not found one, and Iíve chartered aircraft (professionally) in the past.

NB the above is based on the assumption that a search for a commercial fee paying operation was made. The incident flight may not have been for hire or reward, as whilst charter has been mentioned, the organisation of the flight isnít yet known AFAIK. None of my searches turned up a Ďman with a vaní type of offering either.

vanHorck 23rd Jan 2019 19:42

Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad

clareprop 23rd Jan 2019 19:46


Agreed; "To many of us..." but some posting here appear to be doing so without the basics of citing anything other than media reporting without any advanced aviation knowledge behind them.
Was it ever thus.....

Just have to trust in moderators and put up with it...

Auxtank 23rd Jan 2019 19:50


Originally Posted by clareprop (Post 10368695)
Was it ever thus.....

Just have to trust in moderators and put up with it...

Looks that way. Tragic all the same.

WhoopWhoopWhoops 23rd Jan 2019 20:06


Originally Posted by G-MILF (Post 10368663)
As someone else has already stated above, there are only two Dave Ibbotson's in the FAA Airman's Database, both are PPL's.

Some facts regarding operation of a N registered aircraft.

Private operation is part 91

The pilot must have a FAA private pilot licence or higher. As an EU citizen he must also have an valid EASA licence as well as well as an FAA licence to operate in EU airspace.
The flight must be for no remuneration pilot and aircraft. However the aircraft may be leased for remuneration by the passenger or a third party from the lessor (owner) for free use of the passenger but note the UK department of transport (not the CAA) must approve the lessor of the aircraft to lease the aircraft when it is flown in EU airspace.
The regulations that apply are written by EASA and the FAA. The CAA only enforces them in UK airspace. In other EU States it is their responsibility to enforce EASA regulations.
Cost sharing does not apply and is not available as it is a N registered aircraft.
Any other type of operation is a public transport operation and would be contrary to both US and EU law in this case.


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