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-   -   Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/566536-hawker-hunter-down-shoreham.html)

Effluent Man 23rd Aug 2015 08:07

For several years we had a summer air show at Lowestoft with the spectators spread along two miles of seafront and the display performed laterally offshore. It worked really well. Posters may recall the 2002 incident when the Harrier went down with only a broken ankle to the pilot who, after ejecting, very unfortunately landed on his aircraft.:mad:

(I have no idea what that "censored" is about.)

SLFguy 23rd Aug 2015 08:46


Why are posters saying that displays shouldn't be over roads ? How do you get to an airfield without using a road ?

Remember too that many airfields started life well away from any urbanisation, then .... people moved close to the said airfield, and ..... tried to close the airfield !!!
This is the latest of the utter drivel 'in denial' posts.

Nobody is saying they can't fly over roads for God's sake!

It's the performance of some manoeuvres,(and particularly some elements of them), over roads and positions where spectators may be that is the question.

If the aviation community's response is going to be "There are too many roads, silly people in their houses close to airfields" then I'm afraid they are in for a rude awakening at the hands of politicos and the nanny state all too willing to spin disaster to their advatage.

A bit of self examination and admittance that yesterday should not of happened and must not happen again is needed.

This, along with a positive approach to this issue may, just may, save air shows that millions enjoy every year.

Spunky Monkey 23rd Aug 2015 09:01

SLFguy, the reason people said about air shows having to cross roads, was because last night there were multiple people coming on saying how dare they have an air show near or crossing a road.
There were people suggesting that there could be criminal negligence and how the UK was a disgrace for having an air show near a road.
There were multiple people stating that the UK is a small heavily populated area in the South and as such if there are going to be displays then they will be near to where people are going about their day to day business.

Unfortunately moderators removed a lot of the defences and as such have skewed the debate.

I hope that clears up why people are mentioning the road, not justifying anything.

fixwing38 23rd Aug 2015 09:23

hawker hunter at Shorman
 
looking at the ambients of the day.
+30c and high humidity
the density levels may well have been a major cause of what happened.
performing actions in the cockpit by numbers like from the top of climb drop the nose count 12345... operate the controls to start the pull out and NOTHING!
airplane continues to sink towards the ground in a FLAT attitude... only seconds to impact with no response from controls. enters into the ground effect and ****
I lost two friends due to similar degraded density levels on a hot humid day at an air show in the Med'

Mr A Tis 23rd Aug 2015 09:26

Roads & Airshows
 
Just to clear things up a little, there are already rules about not flying over the spectator area or any manoeuvre below 500'
There would have been no "plan" to display over the road. Clearly something went wrong -either mechanical, pilot incapacipation or a mistake.
We simply do not know at this stage, other than we do know there would have been no intention to fly low over the road.

Tourist 23rd Aug 2015 09:47

If we banned everything that had the capability to kill or negatively affect the health of others, we would have to return to the dark ages.

I never understand why everybody tries to treat aviation as somehow different and hold it to greater rules.

More passers-by are killed by drivers losing control of wheeled vehicles in the UK every day than are lost per year to aircraft accidents but it is the aircraft that are singled out.

Kids die in swimming pools but we don't ban them.
Kids die in dinghys but we don't ban them.
Kids die skiing but we don't ban them.
Kids die on ponys but we don't ban them.
The list is endless.


The only way to remove risk is to remove life itself. We need to accept that accidents happen and move on, not just ban all the little things which make life worth living.

All that being said, I do find it strange that under our current display rules, spectators who have paid money to come and watch a show have more protection than those with no interest!

Personally I would make all paid spectators sign an agreement accepting responsibility for their own health in a more dangerous environment.

rideforever 23rd Aug 2015 09:58

Shoreham airshow map (possibly 2014) showing the aicraft display line on the West side, and not on the North over the A27.

http://www.shorehamairshow.co.uk/wp-...sabled_map.png

On this video you can see the pilot is doing a loop directly over the road:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ6WtkXHaxE

It's one thing risking your own life.

Kelly Hopper 23rd Aug 2015 10:06

That road junction is literally just outside the airfield boundary. The traffic lights form the traffic control going into the airport. How can one fly an aerobatic fast jet routine and keep within the airfield boundary? You can't. The extended centreline to runway 20 crosses those lights so I would suggest it came down in the undershoot? As much to do with flying near roads as having the M25 at the end of Heathrow's runways. So what do we do about that?:confused:

fmgc 23rd Aug 2015 10:29

"Air Accidents should be investigated by the AAIB (or national equivalent) and not by the police, unless there is a strong hint of criminal wrongdoings."

The police will treat every aircraft accident site as a crime site.

There is a lot of education needed in the police of what is needed in an accident scene and who has jurisdiction (oh how they do love to show who is in charge).

I think that it is difficult for the AAIB to take control off the police once they arrive at the scene.

I am aquatinted with some display pilots who fly the Hunter (and Sabre), can anybody say who the pilot was? Just initials will do if? PM if preferable.

mmurray 23rd Aug 2015 10:33

The Daily Mail have published the pilot's name.

ZOOKER 23rd Aug 2015 10:38

Looking at the Airspace Restriction Notice, AIC M 042/2015, the top of the restricted airspace allocated to this event is 5500'. This is also the base of the Class 'A' LTMA airspace above EGKA.
Would this upper limit have been sufficient for this particular aircraft or did LACC allocate additional class 'A' to EGKA on an 'as required' basis?

EGLD 23rd Aug 2015 10:39


That road junction is literally just outside the airfield boundary. The traffic lights form the traffic control going into the airport. How can one fly an aerobatic fast jet routine and keep within the airfield boundary? You can't. The extended centreline to runway 20 crosses those lights so I would suggest it came down in the undershoot? As much to do with flying near roads as having the M25 at the end of Heathrow's runways. So what do we do about that?
Perhaps shut all nearby roads and access during aerobatics

Someone mentioned Hillsborough and how football wasn't cancelled

No, but watching the game was changed beyond recognition

BristolScout 23rd Aug 2015 10:44

fmgc. I take your point but the rules are that the blue-light services -usually the police in a case like this - assume control of the crash scene. AAIB work under them but with full access to everything.

mbriscoe 23rd Aug 2015 10:44


Quote:
Appeal been sent for any video of the incident to email to [email protected]
Air Accidents should be investigated by the AAIB (or national equivalent) and not by the police, unless there is a strong hint of criminal wrongdoings.
I don't think it suggests that the police are 'investigating' it, just assisting with collecting evidence as will always happen. I doubt whether the AAIB have the resources to collect all the evidence without assistance from other parties.

A-FLOOR 23rd Aug 2015 10:45

Some of the footage taken of the final moments is extraordinary, as is the willingness of some people to pin the blame on the pilot. Because it appears that as the aircraft pitches past -90deg, a stream of fuel appears from the RH droptank, and in its final moments there is a small uncommanded roll motion to the left.

I'll just leave this with you.

http://i.imgur.com/PqDuc3Gl.png

mbriscoe 23rd Aug 2015 10:51


fmgc. I take your point but the rules are that the blue-light services -usually the police in a case like this - assume control of the crash scene. AAIB work under them but with full access to everything.
Wasn't there some mutterings in the Scottish media or from SNP politicians after the Glasgow police helicopter crash about who would have overall responsibility i.e. a UK organisation (AAIB) or someone in Scotland?

fmgc 23rd Aug 2015 10:54


AAIB work under them but with full access to everything
That is not the case. The AAIB have full authority with no judicial or police oversight. It is a terribly important factor in getting at the truth and is mandated in ICAO Annex 13.

Unfortunately many other countries do not adhere to this requirement and so the investigation is hampered by individuals not able to speak freely for fear of incriminating themselves.

https://www.app.college.police.uk/ap...jor-incidents/


The AAIB has primacy for the investigation at the scene of an aircraft accident.
The terminology is very much that the police should be helping not leading.


The Regulations make it clear that AAIB Inspectors must perform their statutory duties in cooperation with the authorities responsible for the judicial inquiry. The police may conduct an inquiry to determine if a crime has been committed and/or, if there are fatalities, they may be required to investigate on behalf of the Coroner or Procurator Fiscal pending a formal Inquest or Fatal Accident Inquiry.
Taken from https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...High_amend.pdf

deptrai 23rd Aug 2015 10:55

I don't think it suggests that the police are 'investigating' it

Agreed. Police won't be investigating what happened inside the Hunter. They may assist in collecting some evidence. And probably write a report about the "road accident" part, as they would routinely do with any car collision. Could be needed for some insurance bureaucrats, among other purposes. They won't be encroaching on the authority of the AAIB.

slfie 23rd Aug 2015 11:14

I'm extremely familiar with the area, and that particular junction on the A27. Basically it's fast, open dual carriageway, and that junction is the only one for some distance. Apart from the north entrance to the airfield, there is small scenic road opposite (Coombes Road), also it's the only crossing place for cyclists and pedestrians (toucan crossing, I think) and is well-used since it leads to the bridge across the river to Shoreham. The traffic lights have been there for many years.

Incredibly unlucky for this to happen just there; it's pretty much all open countryside to the north (apart from Lancing College, the impressive gothic building seen in the background of some of the videos). All in all, a particularly unfortunate incident; let's hope there are no particularly negative long-term consequences for Shoreham or indeed airshows in general.


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