I photographed this aircraft performing at Bray in Ireland last month and my pictures show that some flap was used during some of the manoeuvres.

Are the flaps down in those pictures?

On the 2 pics in post #34 it looks like it to me. Look under the trailing edge.

I was seated at the other side of the runway. No fast jet experience but I didn't think top of loop looked that high. FJ pilot said he thought he was trying to spool up. Didn't hear the power increase. Road burned so won't open for a while. Motorbike fatality at the other exit so both exits blocked.

I've seen a few fatalities but this was the first one I've seen brew up. Absolute tragedy. I grieve for his family. They will be desolate.

I would like to add that, despite the media trying to get people to say how traumatised they were, the crowd was perfect. They were patient for five hours without complaint.

Just to add for those who posted about the aircraft's flaps being deployed, it is perfectly normal for a Hunter to display with a "combat flap" setting (of about 20 degrees) as this improves manoeuvrability at lower speeds.

Flaps ?
 

Wycombe "was this a last minute action to try to generate some additional lift/recover?"

Swept wing stalls at leading edge, flaps would not have helped to recover from what at first appears to be a pull too early from an accelerated stall exceeding critical angle of attack.

We were sitting in a pub garden on the opposite side of the airfield. The pilot seemed to be trying to pull through the loop rather than create a clean arc. As soon as I saw the low airspeed and high AoA I feared the worst. Probably totally irrelevant, but just before the show started my friend and I both commented on the very large flocks of starlings that were swirling around above us.

What a terrible accident. Condolences to those who have lost loved ones.
For the injured, deepest sympathy.

There are significant clues in the pictures and videos that are already here.

When you fly a loop and you start at ground level, which is what happend here, you must bank some excess airspeed to ensure you will have some energy left for the pullout in a maneuver which is essentially an energy consuming maneuver in a non-afterburning jet.

This maneuver required converting that excess energy into altitude, but that did not happen here. Shortly after the 90 degree pitch attitude, the aircraft rolled off heading and then pulled quickly to the nearest horizon. When the pilot elected to continue the maneuver from there, that created the accident.

It is very likely that the pilot experienced either a gray out or GLOC event during the climb phase. That would be a reasonable explanation for the strange events leading to the top of the loop.

Ive been burnt a couple of times while flying in airshows, and have subsequently refused to volunteer. You have to be completely on top of your game for them, and even then the fickle finger of fate can tap you on the shoulder.

The carnage in this accident is a sad reminder that aviation is actually a rather dangerous art that requires extreme levels of planning and execution to produce a safe result. Accidents like this one take the fun out of aviation.

Reminds me of the Typhoon near miss at RIAT in 2006...

F4 Abingdon 1988

BBC reporting that pilot has survived and is in critical condition in hospital.

Reminded me very much of the RR Spitfire crash at 1992 Woodford Air Show.

The plane hit tail first and apparently the area in front of the wing including the cockpit broke away. Id still imagine hes in very bad shape. Few tastless videos doing the rounds now unfortunately...

Having been around Hunters for a large part of my aviation career I can say it's not uncommon for a Hunter pilot to use "1 notch" of flap for manoeuvring.

Unfortunately it really looks like he left it too late to pull out of the bottom of the loop, the engine was spooled up and he was pulling hard just prior to impact.

Condolences to all those affected.

Sunamer. Your post is pretty stupid! Aircraft are not allowed to fly over the crowd line whilst displaying but it's inevitable your flight path may just take you over a road.:ugh:

How much time these pilots get in aircraft such as a Gnat or a Hunter is interesting considering how expensive they are to operate. When they were in service, display pilots would fly many practices in addition to their other flying duties which was probably 3 trips a day.

Remembering Paris Airshow crashes
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh-kuztsE1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL1FblthxQ0

After the second accident (all pilots ejected and survived to both crashes) new safety rules were elected at Le Bourget to establish a minimal security height never to be trespassed during demonstrations.
What was doing this aircraft here and at this altitude for this kind of manoeuvring is rather astonishing.

What were the options available then?

It's a very tragic accident, most probably because something has gone wrong, nothing in life is guaranteed, living is a dangerous thing, unfortunately you just can't completely sanitise the world.

Sunamer, there was no intention to fly so low on the part of the pilot. That he did so was likely due to a miscalculation, the manoeuvre he flew was not a straight loop and this would lead to a reduction in the height achieved over the top and hence the lack of altitude to allow for a safe minimum altitude at pull out.

High performance aircraft are demanding to fly, the safety margins can be smaller than anticipated. In this case the investigation will be very thorough, AAIB are probably the best in the world at what they do. If changes are needed in display procedures and authorisations then they will be identified and made.

Much sympathy to all families of the deceased, and prayers and thoughts to those (including the pilot) who are still with us... but fighting.

Folks... I'm as keen to understand just what happened here as anybody else. I'm British, and having lived in Texas in the past, know a bit about what it's like to have acre upon acre of free land about which can be used to configure and set up safely away from people.

The reality is that here on the 'Moss Rock'.. we just don't have the space. Added to that.. we have a very bureaucratic and heavily regulated approach to what airspace we have, which I guess is understandable..

The points others have raised are all valid... it is an old bird, they were produced to be maintained wit no expense spared by the government, but that said, I know the levels of dedication teams of people have towards aircraft like these.

Time on type is another factor.. pilot age and fitness.. yes.. all to be considered.. and like many others here.. I didn't like the way this was looking from the vertical, just seemed to low and slow to me for an old swept wing jet.. but then I'm no expert.

What I will say is that in discussing these events there seems to be a constant pattern of members sharing views, others critiquing them harshly, a riposte from the poster.. and then leading to all out insults, offensive comments and impoliteness..... why..?

7 people died today. Every time we get in to fly, we are privileged to do so. Yes I get that our personality types likely mean we are forthright and assertive.. but any need for arrogance and ego... really?

Let's do the best honour we can to those involved in this, their families who may well be reading this tread, and in honour of those who paid the dear price... by being gracious, considerate and having some level of humility in all our discussions.

Please.

Appeal been sent for any video of the incident to email to [email protected]
Mods can you create a sticky for the email addr please maybe
thanks

We have plenty of air show safety rules in the UK also thanks. A high speed flight along the runway followed by a pull up for a loop should be pretty safe...obviously something went wrong and I bet very similar manoeuvres are done at similar heights at French air shows.

Flap was indeed used for manoeuvring at low speed, but at high speed the pitch down moment could exceed the elevator authority to pitch up. It was something that was stressed in air combat training.

BBC reporting pilot survived, but critical, (last second ejection perhaps?)
Says actual crash point was in the trees, just left of the road, so the burning car was prob hit by debris and fireball. App the pilot was an ex-Harrier jockey and qualified display pilot for type.
Let's leave speculations asto cause to AAIB.
Bournemouth game was delayed by 15 mins 'because of nearby Airshow and booked Vulcan just did a flypast Salute, not the anticipated full display.
Very reminiscent of private Spitfire that pancaked in after completing a loop, at BAe Woodford Airshow many years ago.
The dead deserve our respect but the injured survivors require our support!

PS looked more like a half reverse Cuban 8, not a 'loop the loop' to me, perfectly acceptable for a display 'box' IMO.

Nick H: Yes it is normal and the aircraft was perfectly capable (vintage or new:rolleyes:) - something went wrong.

Seagull2200 - good post, well said.

One thought here, where I was today 60 miles north of Shoreham it was 29C.
Now, if you had been practicing loops through most of this summer it barely got above 23C. So there might just be a performance aspect to this tragic event.

staplefordheli, I was there today, really tragic, as far as video appeal is concerned, "Just Planes" video were videoing for the official DVD in full HD and captured the whole thing professionally from all their cameras that were mounted on high platforms. I'm sure they will have handed the footage to the authorities.

Aircraft age
 

I think the most utterly ridiculous thing I've read all day is textual diahorrea against doing aerobatics in 'vintage' or whatever term aircraft. Wow it surpassed some political nonsense on Facebook and that's saying something.

Sure there's an element of risk involved in simply flying any aircraft, there are also handling nuances, and that is true of any type regardless of its age. There are doubtless lessons that can be learned from the utterly tragic accident today (which is true of any flight regardless of the outcome).

Providing an aircraft is maintained and within its fatigue limits they don't simply die of old age. Maybe there are things that can be done to prevent this in the future, but I might remind those of you with an a it mentality of the following:

1.
Airshows are traditionally the second most popular pastime in the UK; The first (of which I'm not particularly fond) is soccer. If you're old enough, you may recall that 96 spectators were killed at a match but soccer matches were not banned, I wonder if anywhere close to that number have been killed at air shows even if you count non aircraft accident spectator deaths and those of aircrew, I certainly know that the deaths of people on the ground is exceptional for a very long time.

2.
I don't know how many of you fly regularly but it's pretty difficult to never fly over a road especially in the vicinity of an airport. What we have here is a departure from controlled flight (it crashed) so exactly what geographic feature was underneath is pot luck, sadly the statistical outcome was so much worse in this case, but it was away from the crowd line as required.

Apart from the obvious economic obstacles, performing over the ocean where haze and fog often obscure the horizon line seems much more difficult to me.
I remember a USN F-18 air show loss for this reason in Toronto, where Lake Ontario provided the arena.

Side angle view
 

It seems he missed the field by just a few hundred meters, :( perhaps, literally landing on top of two cars and clipping the back of one other, then skidding off the road.
A fourth car was also hit.

This wide angle side view shows the angle of descent in the last few seconds.

http://youtu.be/XjmglwWS3xU

Mickjoebill

Nick H & those with similar mindset-
Just ask BBMF and Vulcan XH558 (shortly to lose airworthiness Cert) pilots why they prefer to fly displays rather than stay at home and mow the lawn?
For all participants,inc most spectators, aircraft are only 'alive' when flying.
Specificallysk any airline passenger who ignores pre-flight safety briefing if they are happy to entrust their survival to a poss 25 year old 'cigar tube' and proficient flight crew

I thought the displays had to include an element of safety and after the loss of the Mk14 Spit back in the early 1990s there was a lean towards Immelmanns over loops and display pilots sticking to doing their routines.
Cant believe the CAA authorised that.
"Impress the knowledgable, amaze the ignorant and scare nobody"

Air Accidents should be investigated by the AAIB (or national equivalent) and not by the police, unless there is a strong hint of criminal wrongdoings.

Condolences to all involved.

@HS125: your football analogy hits the mark but still I am afraid this might result in further restrictions to airshows and of course it could increase sponsors/partners' involved in keeping old expensive gear aloft reluctance to keep their hands in the antique aircraft operation.

I have seen a Bücker 131 end a loop a few feet below ground level at Hannover Airshow as a kid, hurting no one and (I believe) with the pilot surviving, but it's a sickening sight when you start to feel that a loop is not going to work out.....

Seems clear that such manoeuvres should be done over the airfield and not over a busy road which needlessly puts people's lives at risk.

With such a loss of life we could ask if there is a criminal negligence on the part of the air show.

Having been there and watched the Abingdon crash from a very close distance I can't help but see some similarities in the footage that is all over the news this morning.
The difference was that with one exception of a guy waiting to cross the runway who got the fright of his life, almost all the wreckage (except one engine?) was within the airfield and we avoided this terrible scenario.

At least seven people who presumably had nothing to do with the display are dead. Under those circumstances it seems reasonable to question it in the way that Sandy does. The difference between the football disasters and this is that those were spectators, these were totally unconnected drivers and passengers. I have to say pilot error looks the strongest possibility here.

We all realise there is an element of risk in aerobatic flying and this type of air display, as with many other entertainments.
If you buy a ticket to attend, or maybe don’t buy a ticket but choose to view from a public place or even to view by stopping (trespassing) on a public footpath, then you accept that risk.
However, in this case it appears that most who sadly lost their lives were simply going about their lawful business.

On some of the photographs there are people standing at the junction where the accident happened that would appear to be watching the show. We do not know whether those hurt and injured where in the area for the airshow or not. They may have been, or they may not have been.

What we do know is it is the first incident for many years that has caused a significant loss of life, and that it will be investigated thoroughly and no doubt rules changed.

Why are posters saying that displays shouldn't be over roads ? How do you get to an airfield without using a road ?

Remember too that many airfields started life well away from any urbanisation, then .... people moved close to the said airfield, and ..... tried to close the airfield !!!

Southern England is crowded, I'll be surprised if the Hunter could complete any aerobatic manoeuvre that doesn't pass over perimeter roads ?

Very sad, condolences to all.

Very sad indeed. Let's hope Andy makes a recovery in time.

At Shoreham at least, the display line could surely be the beach, with spectators on the shore line.