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Fatal Lockheed 12 crash at Chino, 15 Jun 2024

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Fatal Lockheed 12 crash at Chino, 15 Jun 2024

Old 19th Jun 2024, 16:31
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Imagining no published Vmc etc
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Old 19th Jun 2024, 20:42
  #22 (permalink)  
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Video of the Georgia crash up to the loss of control. Saw a theory it was a brake failure - certainly plenty of right rudder.

https://imgur.com/R1xXSBI
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 01:22
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treaders, more likely cause is the tail wheel wasn't locked, see where the tail wheel touches down in the video.


Does 12 have flap position indicator
Yes, positioned on the left instrument panel immediately to the left of throttle quadrant

Imagining no published Vmc etc
75 mph

Last edited by megan; 20th Jun 2024 at 02:10. Reason: vmc
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 02:59
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Good catch on the tail wheel. It definitely wasn’t locked.
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 04:19
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Blancolirio

Juan's account has it that all three survived...
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 04:37
  #26 (permalink)  
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Thanks Megan, thought it was just a bit of shimmy, didn't realise it needed to be locked.
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 04:43
  #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BugBear
Juan's account has it that all three survived...
Yes they did, both front seaters had serious leg injuries and other damage but were conscious during rescue... Believe guy in cabin had a number of broken ribs but was able to extricate himself. Very very lucky looking at the damage.

Two fatalities in the Chino crash.
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 12:11
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On another forum, there was a rumour of both engines being shut down after the loss of directional control. I would suggest that one refrain from doing this(or leaving the engines at idle) and use differential power to change direction away from an obstacle.

Not so different from a single engine taildragger, in terms of using power to prevent an incident. I have done this twice already this year(Citabria in crosswind to straighten out and continue the rollout as well as power to go around in a biplane after a wing drop in the flare).

Power can be your friend. In this case, it could have been applied to an engine to at least change the trajectory.

I suggest a brief mental review of what might be applicable for your situation prior to landing as it makes it fresh in mind when something undesired happens suddenly. Stale procedures that were last reviewed years ago may take longer to employ. I remember a procedure being briefed prior to an ice strip landing in a crosswind once(differential reverse).

Differential power can be used to intentionally groundloop. Believe it or not, we had an HS-748 captain do exactly that a long time ago on a slush covered runway to prevent an overrun in Nuuk as the alternative was a drop-off at the end of the runway.

Tree trunks are bad news. An acquaintance of mine was killed in an Aerostar a few years ago after a survivable crash landing which then hit a tree.

Last edited by punkalouver; 20th Jun 2024 at 15:38.
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 12:47
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Originally Posted by punkalouver
On another forum, there was a rumour of both engines being shut down after the loss of directional control. I would suggest that one refrain from doing this(or leaving the engines at idle) and use differential power to change direction away from an obstacle.
Gryder says one engine was still running after the impact and they had difficulty shutting it down.

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Old 20th Jun 2024, 18:06
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
Gryder says one engine was still running after the impact and they had difficulty shutting it down.

https://www.facebook.com/dan.gryder/...ref=embed_post
As far as using differential power once the tail is down I'd say no...Increasing power on the left engine from idle would only add to the impact speed...There is a point of no return so shutting them down is the right call...As far as the tailwheel lock I can't think of a reason to unlock it after TO so not sure why it's loose...On the BE18 once lined up for TO and tailwheel lever "locked" I'd wiggle the rudders to confirm the pin was in on the wheel...The home rwy was 2700'x30'ish and clay, so crud would build up back there on the pin...Once the tail is down it's a brake dance...
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Old 20th Jun 2024, 18:36
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Originally Posted by 1southernman
As far as using differential power once the tail is down I'd say no...Increasing power on the left engine from idle would only add to the impact speed...There is a point of no return so shutting them down is the right call...As far as the tailwheel lock I can't think of a reason to unlock it after TO so not sure why it's loose...On the BE18 once lined up for TO and tailwheel lever "locked" I'd wiggle the rudders to confirm the pin was in on the wheel...The home rwy was 2700'x30'ish and clay, so crud would build up back there on the pin...Once the tail is down it's a brake dance...
I personally would consider increasing power to avoid an obstacle. In this case, a tree was hit head on and went directly into a cockpit. A differential power increase could have resulted in a glancing blow on the fuselage or the tree hitting the wing or a complete groundloop. All this at the risk of a higher impact speed. Imminent accidents have unknowns and actions can make things better or worse.
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Old 22nd Jun 2024, 09:13
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Interesting quote below apparently from Gryder... as a non pilot with just a little knowledge I should have believed it a no-brainer that locking the tail wheel on a narrow strip bounded by obstructions would help keep you straight even if other things did go agley and perhaps give you time to sort things out - thoughts?

"I am once again pretty disappointed with a non CFI, non MEI, part 121 FO YouTuber that never checked out in a BE-18 or an L12A.
FACT: The L12A will climb 400 fpm with full flaps extended, and the tailwheel doesn’t need to be locked for takeoff or landing. Tailwheel lock is a work load reliever for long taxiways where no turns are required. I never locked a tailwheel for any BE-18 takeoff or landing and this has zero to do with what happened.
We typically don’t lock tailwheel for any L12A operation, but some do, just personal preference."
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Old 22nd Jun 2024, 13:07
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locking the tail wheel on a narrow strip bounded by obstructions would help keep you straight
I cannot speak for the procedures of the subject airplane, and I when I was trained in the turbine DC-3, the tailwheel lock was engaged for takeoff and landing. That said I've done the crosswind testing on glare ice of a couple of different taildraggers which did not have tailwheel locks. Generally for GA taildraggers, that tailwheel itself has less effect in controlling direction that the rudder does, down to around 20 MPH, when the rudder looses aerodynamic effect. Similarly, differential brake is a poor substitute for effective use of the rudder. When I land my taildragger (on my 2000 foot grass runway) use of brakes at all is very rare. I wheel land, and hold the tail off until it settles. And, I will generally be applying lots of rudder to maintain the runway centerline. It's not unusual that I'll momentarily get as far as full rudder deflection. It does not take too much of a different between heading and track on the runway in a taildragger to lose the control capacity to realign the plane. In my taildragger career, I have twice held the rudder full one way, while the airplane eased its way the other during a rollout. I've never damaged anything, but I have had a taildragger go where I did not want it. Once was just an inattentive landing on my part, the other was simply too much crosswind for the plane.

In any case, tailwheel pilots must be early with corrective rudder application to keep the plane on the runway centerline. Ironically, I have found that more narrow runways are easier for this, as you get a sense more early in a drift that you are drifting. I find that casual tailwheel pilots on wide runways think that they have lots of room (width) on the runway. They do, but if you're using all that room, it's probably for a groundloop!
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Old 22nd Jun 2024, 22:07
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It baffle me a little not wanting to use your tailwheel lock for landing or take off when available. A bit like not wanting to wear your shoulder harness during those critical phases of flight.


Sure, the first series of Beech 18 didn’t have a lock, that’s probably where and why it got its bad reputation with ground handling. But it became standard not long after.

The ones I flew had it and in 800+ hrs on them I never, ever, took off or landed without it locked because…There is absolutely no need to play macho man by not using every tool you have available to help.
To enforce that, my initial training was given by one of the Beech 18 “Skygods” at the time and guess what!? Same! Tailwheel lock On when lined up for take Off, left On until exiting the runway after landing.


And Pilot Dar has it right, it’s always locked for take off and landing on the Turbine 3
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Old 23rd Jun 2024, 00:23
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The L12A flight manual I have is a Lockheed produced 1956 reprint, it contains a note in the taxiing instructions that the tail wheel lock should be engaged for both landing, take off, extended taxi in a straight line, and when parking the aircraft to prevent wind swinging the tail.

The pre take off checks make no mention of tail wheel locking.

The pre landing check stipulates locking the tail wheel.

Having said all that the manual suggests that not all L12A have a tail wheel lock, it qualifies some of the instructions by saying "If it has one".
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Old 23rd Jun 2024, 10:35
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I entirely agree that if the airplane is equipped with a tailwheel lock, it should be used as intended by the design. That said, for a tailwheel lock to be effective, there must be lots of weight on the tailwheel, and the pilot still must control the direction as intended with rudder (using the tailwheel lock does not mean that you don't have to steer!). Depending upon elevator control input and speed, there may be more or less weight on the tailwheel, its effectiveness as a sole means of directional control is variable with these factors. So, I always assume that I still have to maintain directional control, and use the rudder as though I want to prevent a groundloop, right up to when I park it.
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Old 23rd Jun 2024, 21:55
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I need to acknowledge that I've not watched the video, and would certainly weigh the evidence and experience of those more closely involved much more highly than mine, therefore I'm not making any direct comment whatsoever on this event. However, given the discussion that has ensued, including around the DC-3, it may be that the following detail is of some interest.

It will be evident that while there is a SOP around the tailwheel lock (note the intervening pages between takeoff and landing do not recommend disengaging), there are other factors to consider. Clearly the pilots amongst us will be well aware of these (esp the tailwheelers!), nevertheless it's useful to be reminded of these things, and that whatever the cause of this event we would be well advised not to focus just on the one thing...




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Old 24th Jun 2024, 17:40
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Dan's explanation.


Lucky guys, tree trunk up against the bulkhead behind the seats.



Last edited by megan; 26th Jun 2024 at 06:35.
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Old 26th Jun 2024, 20:46
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Originally Posted by megan
Dan's explanation.
it appears that access to the explanation was restricted. Is anyone who attended the chatroom able to comment or do we need to wait for the NTSB report?
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Old 26th Jun 2024, 23:20
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Originally Posted by EXDAC
it appears that access to the explanation was restricted. Is anyone who attended the chatroom able to comment or do we need to wait for the NTSB report?
Don’t really understand his implied restriction to subscribers for the second video as it was viewable once it completed streaming (and is available for viewing now). If you don’t want to sit through 38 minutes of video to get to 2 minutes of explanation, here’s my recollection from what I watched a few days ago: Removal/repair of the right gear oleo required disassembly of the right brake line. Upon reassembly, the right brake system was bled and tested. Inspected during pre-flight with no discrepancies. Right brake tested during taxi and run-up with no discrepancies. Somehow (speculation) during gear retraction and/or extension, the right brake line or fitting “twisted,” causing the fitting to come loose, resulting in a brake line fluid breech. Brakes were not tested for pedal feel after gear down upon approach for landing. After landing, right brake was marginal or non-functional, with uncontrolled yaw to left.
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