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Another Southwest close call

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Another Southwest close call

Old 16th Jun 2024, 08:39
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Originally Posted by airplanemixer
I don’t know how the Boeing works but usually at my Airbus operator we keep the A/P engaged until we’re fully visual, so we can keep our workload low and reduce the margin for error for something as demanding as a go around… food for thought maybe seeing as keeping the automatics in probably would’ve avoided this whole situation?
The problem is the automatics won’t work for you one day and you will not be capable of hand flying the approach. My airline required you to be capable and current in all modes.
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Old 16th Jun 2024, 08:51
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When I flew the 737, other than an autoland (with both APs engaged on the ILS) the AP would drop out when you hit the TOGA buttons.

Last edited by Speed_Trim_Fail; 16th Jun 2024 at 09:03.
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Old 16th Jun 2024, 11:39
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Originally Posted by Speed_Trim_Fail
When I flew the 737, other than an autoland (with both APs engaged on the ILS) the AP would drop out when you hit the TOGA buttons.
I thought 737s auto-go-arounded on both APs (which meanwhile had to unwind all the nose-up trim) but could be a bitch with a disconnect. Didn’t have them in my old 737 days but would RNAV approaches be single AP?

If your only experience of going around was in the sim and you remember having to push against power and trim, plus you had low hours on type…
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Old 16th Jun 2024, 14:50
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Originally Posted by BugBear
So the pic briefed the go around into Kaui.
Shouldn't the go around be burned into the brain, and brief the landing?
Yes and hand flown in your sleep, sad its just not that hard
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Old 16th Jun 2024, 15:19
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Pitch and power. Did Captain give fo a hand flown ga? Maybe not the time for practice. 400'agl...wo

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Old 16th Jun 2024, 15:41
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Originally Posted by EXDAC
I found no data for this flight in ADS-B exchange but I did find it in Flight Aware
ADS-B Exchange does not allow search by flight number but the flight can be found with a search for N8788L. (Flight is UTC day April 12)


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Old 16th Jun 2024, 19:52
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Originally Posted by thnarg
I thought 737s auto-go-arounded on both APs (which meanwhile had to unwind all the nose-up trim) but could be a bitch with a disconnect. Didn’t have them in my old 737 days but would RNAV approaches be single AP?

If your only experience of going around was in the sim and you remember having to push against power and trim, plus you had low hours on type…
Correct - auto GA available only with both APs in. I recall the out of trim condition being nasty, but always found 737 (classic) a delight to fly in all phases to be honest, but it would punish you if you did not trim or anticipate the pitch/power couple. Regards single AP for an RNAV app you are correct, although I never flew one!

I’ve no idea what the max is like to fly, personally having made the transition to FBW I haven’t got much desire to return to the 737. Or lose my tray table

Last edited by Speed_Trim_Fail; 16th Jun 2024 at 20:08.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 00:57
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
I appreciate that that write-up was not meant for a technically knowledgeable audience, but it reeks of alarmist clickbait.
Having read the leaked report, and looked at the speed and altitude profile for the excursion below minimums, I find the crew performance far more alarming than the "clickbait" is alarmist.

I simply do not understand how a FO could perform this poorly or how the Captain could allow it to happen.





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Old 17th Jun 2024, 05:44
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I can understand the F/O's performance as they have become overwhelmed by the dynamic changes in attitude, speed and physical forces that cannot be replicated in the sim. I dont know the Captains experience but if he knew that the F/O was new to the operation then he should have been PF on the first attempt. Yes F/O's have passed all the checks but to throw them into a situation where the weather is not going to be user friendly is just asking for trouble. let them get used to the aircraft and operation during benign conditions then as they get more comfortable which can take years then let them be the PF on a dark stormy night. A lot of Captains have come unstuck trying to give low time F/O's experience.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 06:49
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
I can understand the F/O's performance as they have become overwhelmed by the dynamic changes in attitude, speed and physical forces that cannot be replicated in the sim. I dont know the Captains experience but if he knew that the F/O was new to the operation then he should have been PF on the first attempt. Yes F/O's have passed all the checks but to throw them into a situation where the weather is not going to be user friendly is just asking for trouble. let them get used to the aircraft and operation during benign conditions then as they get more comfortable which can take years then let them be the PF on a dark stormy night. A lot of Captains have come unstuck trying to give low time F/O's experience.
From my experience the sim is pretty spot on, even for a missed approach. How new was the FO? This was not his IOE checkout. A missed approach is not an emergency maneuver. I don't fault the Captain for letting the FO fly that leg. I did not hear reports of wind shear, strong cross winds or severe icing.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 07:02
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Originally Posted by EXDAC
Having read the leaked report, and looked at the speed and altitude profile for the excursion below minimums, I find the crew performance far more alarming than the "clickbait" is alarmist.

I simply do not understand how a FO could perform this poorly or how the Captain could allow it to happen.
Excursion below minimums? I did not hear that part. What were the mins for the approach and how low did they go?
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 07:47
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In one big airline I know of the FO is the go-around man. CPT focuses on finding visual references and if no contact call before minimums it's a go-around. To think that the left seat is more current and proficient in flying than the right seat is a fallacy these days.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 08:22
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I don't fault the Captain for letting the FO fly that leg.
I would guess that the Captain is regretting his decision.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 08:41
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Originally Posted by Nose Rider
I don't fault the Captain for letting the FO fly that leg. I did not hear reports of wind shear, strong cross winds or severe icing.
US airlines operate a bit differently. Unless the FO is "high mins" (under 100hrs on type), he/she would be expected to handle all 3 of those situations you mentioned. The CA may ask a relatively inexperienced FO if he's comfortable with a particularly challenging approach, but at some point, you'll have to give the FO a chance to do it. The report even states the CA elected to have the FO fly the approach in order to build experience.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 08:50
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
US airlines operate a bit differently. Unless the FO is "high mins" (under 100hrs on type), he/she would be expected to handle all 3 of those situations you mentioned. The CA may ask a relatively inexperienced FO if he's comfortable with a particularly challenging approach, but at some point, you'll have to give the FO a chance to do it. The report even states the CA elected to have the FO fly the approach in order to build experience.
The same in (most) of Europe.
The FO is trained as well as the Capt, and is expected to fly in the same circumstances. Exceptions always exists, but I trust any FO in my company to fly any situation.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 09:18
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Originally Posted by the_stranger
The same in (most) of Europe.
The FO is trained as well as the Capt, and is expected to fly in the same circumstances. Exceptions always exists, but I trust any FO in my company to fly any situation.
Likewise here (Europe/UK). FO is trusted to handle thrust levers/RTO and taxi the aircraft.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 11:19
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Originally Posted by Nose Rider
Excursion below minimums? I did not hear that part. What were the mins for the approach and how low did they go?
RNAV RWY 17 mins 940 and I see a minimum altitude (corrected for HNL elevation) of 505 ft in the low resolution ADS-B data. The leaked report is almost certainly more accurate and says "aircraft descended to nearly 400 ft RA".

RNAV 17 routing is just off the coastline and the descent was over the ocean.

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Old 17th Jun 2024, 11:34
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It would be interesting to know what the FDs were commanding. If the PF went around not in TOGA mode, they would still probably be targeting the threshold elevation + 50’ on an RNAV; similar to the high speed low altitude takeoff Emirates did in Dubai.

Whatever, it seems to have been a gross mismatch between attitude and power. Another factor is the possibility of (unknown) reduced g sensitivity in the PF, so pushing over leads to more pushing over, etc. I am surprised that this situation was allowed to develop this far by the PIC/PM as it had gone way beyond hinting and tipping...
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 11:34
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EXDAC, the 400ft was the descent after the Missed Approach was in progress.




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Old 17th Jun 2024, 12:07
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
EXDAC, the 400ft was the descent after the Missed Approach was in progress.
The RNAV 17 approach plate I'm looking at has an MDA of 940. Is SWA using a different procedure with a DA? if so, what is that DA and what would be a reasonable descent below DA for a missed approach?
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