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seaplane Collides with Boat Vancouver Harbor

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seaplane Collides with Boat Vancouver Harbor

Old 9th Jun 2024, 00:31
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seaplane Collides with Boat Vancouver Harbor

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2024/06/08/vancouver-coal-harbour-marine-incident/

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Yyaahuv6M17kZKnw/?mibextid=w8EBqM
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 05:59
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Try these links
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/several-injure...bour-1.6919308

https://vancouversun.com/news/floatp...couver-harbour

Hmm..If I recall correctly, Beaver floatplanes can abort in a few hundred feet. Perhaps the static boat obscured the moving one?
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 00:54
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It looks like the accident aircraft was Harbour Air’s specially-painted Beaver C-FFHA


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Old 10th Jun 2024, 05:36
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Forward quarter view at 31 seconds in:

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Old 10th Jun 2024, 08:59
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Just found the same view here:

Does anyone know what the rules are for mixing seaplanes and boat traffic in that harbour? Is there a clear area set aside for floatplane operations?
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 09:17
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What's the view from the Beaver like? One has to ask why the boat didn't see the aircraft. It's rather big.
I wonder what the odds are for two things being in the same place, at the same time are?
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 09:20
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The operator of the boat has zero self-preservation instincts. A quarter to half a second earlier to that spot and the results would likely be far more tragic.

However,

1. If another vessel is approaching you from the port — or left — side of your boat, you have the right of way and should maintain your speed and direction.
2. If a vessel is aiming to cross your path and they're on your starboard — or right — side, they have the right of way


Will it be Coast Guard or FAA that takes this on?
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 09:21
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Originally Posted by MechEngr
The operator of the boat has zero self-preservation instincts. A quarter to half a second earlier to that spot and the results would likely be far more tragic.

However,

1. If another vessel is approaching you from the port — or left — side of your boat, you have the right of way and should maintain your speed and direction.
2. If a vessel is aiming to cross your path and they're on your starboard — or right — side, they have the right of way


Will it be Coast Guard or FAA that takes this on?
Do seaplanes count as vessels?
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 09:27
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Apparently so:
After landing on the water, seaplanes are considered marine vessels and must adhere to the rules and regulations described under the provisions of Coast Guard Rule 18 (d) and Federal Aviation Regulation 91.115.
§ 91.115 Right-of-way rules: Water operations.
(a) General. Each person operating an aircraft on the water shall, insofar as possible, keep clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation, and shall give way to any vessel or other aircraft that is given the right-of-way by any rule of this section.

(b) Crossing. When aircraft, or an aircraft and a vessel, are on crossing courses, the aircraft or vessel to the other's right has the right-of-way.

(c) Approaching head-on. When aircraft, or an aircraft and a vessel, are approaching head-on, or nearly so, each shall alter its course to the right to keep well clear.

(d) Overtaking. Each aircraft or vessel that is being overtaken has the right-of-way, and the one overtaking shall alter course to keep well clear.

(e) Special circumstances. When aircraft, or an aircraft and a vessel, approach so as to involve risk of collision, each aircraft or vessel shall proceed with careful regard to existing circumstances, including the limitations of the respective craft.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 09:47
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Originally Posted by DogTailRed2
Do seaplanes count as vessels?
14 CFR PART 91, SECTION 91.115 RIGHT-OF-WAY RULES: WATER OPERATIONS

The right-of-way rules for operation on water are similar, but not identical, to the rules governing right of-way between aircraft in flight. (a) General. Each person operating an aircraft on the water shall, insofar as possible, keep clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation, and shall give way to any vessel or other aircraft that is given the right-of-way by any rule of this section. (b) Crossing. When aircraft, or an aircraft and a vessel, are on crossing courses, the aircraft or vessel to the other’s right has the right-of-way. (c) Approaching head-on. When aircraft, or an aircraft and a vessel, are approaching head-on, or nearly so, each shall alter its course to the right to keep well clear. (d) Overtaking. Each aircraft or vessel that is being overtaken has the right-of-way, and the one overtaking shall alter course to keep well clear. (e) Special circumstances. When aircraft, or an aircraft and a vessel, approach so as to involve risk of collision, each aircraft or vessel shall proceed with careful regard to existing circumstances, including the limitations of the respective craft.

RULES OF THE SEA

According to United States Coast Guard (USCG) regulations, the definition of a vessel includes virtually anything capable of being used for transportation on water, including seaplanes on the water. Therefore, any time a seaplane is operating on the water, whether under power or not, it is required to comply with USCG navigation rules applicable to vessels. Simply adhering to 14 CFR part 91, section 91.115 should ensure compliance with the USCG rules. Pilots are encouraged to obtain the USCG Navigation Rules, International-Inland, M16672.2D, available from the U.S. Government Printing Office. These rules apply to all public or private vessels navigating upon the high seas and certain inland waters.

INLAND AND INTERNATIONAL WATERS

Inland waters are divided visually from international waters by buoys in areas with frequent ocean traffic. Inland waters are inshore of a line approximately parallel with the general trend of the shore, drawn through the outermost buoy. The waters outside of the line are international waters or the high seas. Seaplanes operating inshore of the boundary line dividing the high seas from the inland waters must follow the established statutory Inland Rules (Pilot Rules). Seaplanes navigating outside the boundary line dividing the high seas from inland waters must follow the International Rules of the Sea. All seaplanes must carry a current copy of the rules when operating in international waters.

UNITED STATES AIDS FOR MARINE NAVIGATION

For safe operations, a pilot must be familiar with seaplane bases, maritime rules, and aids to marine navigation.

SEAPLANE LANDING AREAS

he familiar rotating beacon is used to identify lighted seaplane landing areas at night and during periods of reduced visibility; however, the colors alternate white and yellow for water landing areas. A double white flash alternating with yellow identifies a military seaplane base. On aeronautical charts, seaplane landing areas are depicted with symbols similar to land airports, with the addition of an anchor in the center. As with their land counterparts, tick marks around the outside of the symbol denote a seaplane base with fuel and services available, and a double ring identifies military facilities. [Figure 1-2]


It doesn't seem to mention anything restricting other vessels from entering any designated landing area. Vancouver Harbour has a control tower for aircraft movements, so I'd assume the pilot had been given permission to take off.

As it is such a busy place for seaplane traffic other vessels must know there is a landing and takeoff area, but I can't find if there are any restrictions around entering it.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 10:03
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That is all very well, but if you cannot see the 'vessel', accidents will happen.

My own experience of float plane takeoffs, is that the view over the nose is somewhat restricted in a C206, and I am tall

Is the Beavers view more restricted?

Looks like an unfortunate, constant aspect view, collision with the boat below the engine cowl line
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 10:11
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Originally Posted by Deep Throat
That is all very well, but if you cannot see the 'vessel', accidents will happen.

My own experience of float plane takeoffs, is that the view over the nose is somewhat restricted in a C206, and I am tall

Is the Beavers view more restricted?

Looks like an unfortunate, constant aspect view, collision with the boat below the engine cowl line
Absolutely, there also appears to be a wake from the second boat which was coming from the pilots left hand side and is visible in the lower video. The pilot may have been more occupied with keeping track of that boat, and didn't see the second until too late.

But if the regulations say that traffic must keep clear of the aircraft operation zone then you have to wonder what the captain of the boat involved in the collision was doing.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 10:15
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Originally Posted by DogTailRed2
What's the view from the Beaver like? One has to ask why the boat didn't see the aircraft. It's rather big.
I wonder what the odds are for two things being in the same place, at the same time are?
I should imagine that nose up on the step as appear to have been the case, pilot sitting on the left would have a very limited view ahead and to the right, particularly if he/she is of limited stature. Boat crew surely ought to have seen what was approaching and avoided crossing the Beaver's path.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 10:55
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From the Port Information Guide, page 160
https://www.portvancouver.com/wp-con...TION-GUIDE.pdf

8.28 AIRCRAFT
Aircraft on the water must comply with the Collision Regulations. An aircraft traffic control tower
is in operation at Granville Square to provide service to aircraft using Burrard Inlet and the
Fraser River. The aircraft operations zones marked on the chart are areas of high activity and
operators of recreational vessels or pleasure craft are required to keep clear.


Which on the face of it sounds somewhat contradictory.


And while we don't know the exact location other than it's been given as "Coal Harbour" these are the applicable speed limits in the area.



I can find no info whatsoever on operational instructions there, airfield charts seem unavailable on the internet, no details available for visiting pilots. Jeppesen doesn't appear to even know of its existence.
IATA: CXH, ICAO: CYHC

Last edited by meleagertoo; 10th Jun 2024 at 11:42.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 13:11
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We take our boat in and out of Victoria Harbor using known, well-published routes. Until now I'd never bothered to look up similar information for Vancouver and am surprised at how little I've been able to find.

In Seattle's Lake Union it's a bit of a free-for-all where boaters are expected to remain clear of the paths of moving float planes, but it doesn't always seem to work out. The fact that this hasn't happened here is nothing short of dumb luck.

Victoria:


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Old 10th Jun 2024, 13:29
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
........ I can find no info whatsoever on operational instructions there, airfield charts seem unavailable on the internet, no details available for visiting pilots. Jeppesen doesn't appear to even know of its existence.,,,,
The nautical charts CHS3493 for Vancouver show the area noted as a seaplane operating area is just South of the Burnaby Shoal Light with the base itself off the SW corner of the operating area - basically the green box and red circle on your map which I've modified and attached. I have found another copy of 3493 with slightly different shapes for the operating area but they both occupy that general bit of water.

Also came across this which gives more detail of the set-up. I'll leave the narrator to discuss - it starts at 0:24 for some reason so hang on in there to start with!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Vancouver.jpg (183.3 KB, 37 views)

Last edited by Hot 'n' High; 10th Jun 2024 at 13:44.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 13:33
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Originally Posted by Hedge36
We take our boat in and out of Victoria Harbor using known, well-published routes. Until now I'd never bothered to look up similar information for Vancouver and am surprised at how little I've been able to find.

In Seattle's Lake Union it's a bit of a free-for-all where boaters are expected to remain clear of the paths of moving float planes, but it doesn't always seem to work out. The fact that this hasn't happened here is nothing short of dumb luck.

Victoria: [image deleted]
[Disclaimer: I am a sailor not a pilot]

I looks like Vancouver set a local rule, but the Seattle rule is vague and in conflict with the "Amalgamated International and US Inland Navigation Rules" that I know. That said, if you are going on the water you need to know those rules, local or otherwise.

There is no notion of "right of way" in either the international (COLREGS) or inland rules. These stress that avoiding collision is the responsibility of both vessels (and blame if a collision occurs). There is the "give-way vessel" that needs to do something and the "stand-on vessel" that needs to hold course and speed. The roles can change during an encounter. Outside of the dedicated seaplane corridors, rule 18(e) applies to seaplanes and they are generally the give-way vessel (cited as 18(d) in an earlier post). Regardless of the dedicated corridor, rule 17(a)ii and 17(b) apply to the boat where it becomes the give-way vessel and under 17(b) must maneuver to avoid collision if the seaplane does not maneuver. Our boater also seemed to forget rule 5 (lookout).

Everybody was very, very lucky here.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 14:52
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Originally Posted by Hedge36
In Seattle's Lake Union it's a bit of a free-for-all where boaters are expected to remain clear of the paths of moving float planes, but it doesn't always seem to work out. The fact that this hasn't happened here is nothing short of dumb luck.
While it wasn't a boat vs. float plane, there was a fatal event over Lake Union - I'm going to guess ~30 years ago.
One float plane was taking off on the same path as another landing - they couldn't see each other and collided about 50 ft. up.
IIRC, there were no survivors.
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 14:57
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Originally Posted by tdracer
While it wasn't a boat vs. float plane, there was a fatal event over Lake Union - I'm going to guess ~30 years ago.
One float plane was taking off on the same path as another landing - they couldn't see each other and collided about 50 ft. up.
IIRC, there were no survivors.
1986, two C172 floatplanes:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/41916
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 15:02
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Originally Posted by tdracer
While it wasn't a boat vs. float plane, there was a fatal event over Lake Union - I'm going to guess ~30 years ago.
One float plane was taking off on the same path as another landing - they couldn't see each other and collided about 50 ft. up.
IIRC, there were no survivors.
Also not surprising. I know Kenmore's pilots are pretty tuned-in, especially on busy days. We were out there a few weeks ago and I was so busy seeing-and-avoiding those stupid floating hot tubs that one of Kenmore's birds crossed my bow at about 40' - I never saw him taxiing. My new rule is to keep one of the ham radios tuned to 122.9 whenever I'm on Lake Union to better keep track of things.
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