Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

JAL incident at Haneda Airport

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

JAL incident at Haneda Airport

Old 2nd Jan 2024, 12:53
  #161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,543
Received 54 Likes on 34 Posts
Possibly a runway incursion by the coast guard aircraft, a clearance to line up behind being misunderstood as line up. If the coast guard aircraft was high wing they could have had difficulty in seeing an aircraft approaching from above. The JAL aircraft would have been in a nose up attitude which would have restricted their view, and being night time, all the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up.

I haven’t operated into Haneda but the complexity of the taxiways at Narita was certainly memorable.
krismiler is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 12:56
  #162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
AVHerald reporting that there was no command to evacuate. "A first announcement was made "please calm down" followed by "do not take your luggage and do not stand up". There was no clear announcement to evacuate, however, when other passengers stood up they also stood up and thus escaped." Avherald


AirScotia is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 12:56
  #163 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by PC767
Just listened to Japan's transport minister. He said the aircraft landed on runway C. I don't know HND. Does runway C equate to 34R?
Yes, C1-C11 on that side of Terminal2
Falcon666 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:00
  #164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Europe
Age: 54
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by PC767
Just listened to Japan's transport minister. He said the aircraft landed on runway C. I don't know HND. Does runway C equate to 34R?
On ground movement maps for RJTT, the four runways are designated according to the corresponding taxiways letters, A, B, C, and D - 16L-34R being depicted as "C-RWY".
xcris is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:00
  #165 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whilst not criticising the passengers - I am not there and certainly not in a position to know the circumstances - some of the images do show what seem to be mobile phones "on" and in some cases "deployed" by the passengers. I wonder if they used the flashlight function [cabin dark?] or where they tempted to memorialise things? Or both, of course.

The ambient lightning outside of the acrft doesn't seem to require trhe use of additional mobile phone lighting in any case. I know in my personal case, I'd take longer to swipe to the damn function for it to be of use in an emergency situation.
luoto is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:02
  #166 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,543
Received 54 Likes on 34 Posts
https://news.sky.com/story/plane-in-...rport-13040799

This link has a video from inside the aircraft.
krismiler is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:04
  #167 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Age: 62
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 2b2
Can you get replays from adsb exchange? I've never used it but I believe it shows a lot more of the "blocked* aircraft than FR24.
DHC-8's usually disappear from both FR24 and ADS-B Exchange once they get below around 2,000 feet, it's something to do with the transponders they have.
Big Eric is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:05
  #168 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 32
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Just for reference for those discussing tracking the coastguard aircraft, searching the reported registration of the aircraft involved (JA722A) shows it arriving into Haneda 21 hours ago, it also shows that it is tracked via MLAT, with the last tracked position being just before the runway threshold.

I've copied this from multilateration.info describing how MLAT works:
  • "MLAT ground stations receive replies from all transponder-equipped aircraft, including legacy radar and ADS-B avionics, and determine aircraft position based on the time difference of arrival (TDOA) of the replies."
This generally requires (I believe) at least 3 or 4 receivers intercepting replies from any aircraft to be tracked so MLAT tends not to work very well, if at all at ground level.

From that information, providing the reported registration is correct we can assume that the aircraft was not broadcasting ADS-B data, would only be able to be tracked via MLAT and therefore there is no publicly accessible tracking data for it on the ground.
AeroAmigo is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:07
  #169 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by EDLB
They had to fight two fires at the same time. One from a most likely full fuel Dash-8 on the runway and one from the A350 with my estimate a least 1 hour worth of fuel. We might see in the next days what (little) is left from the Dash-8. .
Which actually might be the same amount.
Michael S is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:08
  #170 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Sudbury, Suffolk
Posts: 256
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by luoto
Whilst not criticising the passengers - I am not there and certainly not in a position to know the circumstances - some of the images do show what seem to be mobile phones "on" and in some cases "deployed" by the passengers. I wonder if they used the flashlight function [cabin dark?] or where they tempted to memorialise things? Or both, of course.

The ambient lightning outside of the acrft doesn't seem to require trhe use of additional mobile phone lighting in any case. I know in my personal case, I'd take longer to swipe to the damn function for it to be of use in an emergency situation.
At least one of the publicly available videos shows dark smoke in the cabin. In general the flow of people through bottlenecks is best achieved without haste, thus there would be time waiting for pax in the queue.

As everyone got off alive I suggest that the form of learning here can take the form WWW/EBI - What Worked Well/Even Better If
Maninthebar is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:08
  #171 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
At approx 17:29 (0847z) of that ATC audio, there are crackly remnants of a line up and wait instruction/read back. Can't tell for which runway or aircraft its relating to, but could be pertinent in case anyone has access to better audio/ears than me
jetnova is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:14
  #172 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 881
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Well this seems like another well handled evacuation from a professional crew which reminds me of another crash where all escaped thanks to the crew of the Air France Airbus 340 in Toronto many years ago. Many people are alive today thanks to this JAL crew.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:17
  #173 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero
That slide doesn't look like it deployed properly.
This is tragic. A member of the public can see aircraft movements on FR24 and spot a potential collision before any onboard aircraft systems and ATC can. How is that possible in 2024?
Slide deployed properly, but since the nose gear collapsed during the impact with the Dash, the tail is higher, so the slide is in a steaper angle.
There is no collision warning system on the ground. As soon as you touch down, those systems switch off. How would you navigate on the ground otherwise?
Dani is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:21
  #174 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Moved back to enemy territory... Leeds!!
Age: 49
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by VR-HFX
Not how Haneda Airport operates. With northerly winds, 34L is normal for arrivals and 34R for departures. Only been in and out of that airport about 100 times.

Well it's pretty non scientific but using FR24 I've had a look at a few random recent JL516 arrivals in to HND and for northerly arrivals they've all been on 34R, not seen a single L, I'd say I've looked at 12-15.
Frankfurt_Cowboy is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:22
  #175 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by luoto
Whilst not criticising the passengers - I am not there and certainly not in a position to know the circumstances - some of the images do show what seem to be mobile phones "on" and in some cases "deployed" by the passengers. I wonder if they used the flashlight function [cabin dark?] or where they tempted to memorialise things? Or both, of course.

The ambient lightning outside of the acrft doesn't seem to require trhe use of additional mobile phone lighting in any case. I know in my personal case, I'd take longer to swipe to the damn function for it to be of use in an emergency situation.
Ambient/Emergency Lighting in aircraft is somewhat worthless when you're surrounded by opaque grey smoke and pungent choking fumes. Passengers would be in a panic mode and making rash decisions in difficult circumstances, some suffering with smoke inhalation and shock. Possibly separated from other family on the aircraft who may have disembarked from different chutes and looking to contact them in the hope they got out alive. When safely a distance away from the aircraft, taking a 'trophy snap' of the raging inferno they just survived seems kinda reasonable all considered.
gsmitheidw1 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:22
  #176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 793
Received 35 Likes on 12 Posts
I’ve thought about this for a long time. I flew Ryanair in Europe once, 99% of the passengers were uni-aged kids and the emergency exit seats had been bought by an old couple. And I mean old. Like 80. So they clearly paid for more comfort whereas the kids wouldn’t. If something had happened they were the wrong people to have manning the exit. (I was in the exit row on the other side)
Don't be in too much of a hurry to judge by appearances.
I am 81. I flew 737's for 25years. I still give my full attention to the safety brief, in spite of all the times I did my safety training, and opened an overwing hatch for real. I suspect that I would be more likely to open the hatch in an emergency that a uni-age kid who did not lift his eyes from his computer game during the safety brief.
oxenos is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:25
  #177 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SIN
Age: 48
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Iron Duck
A350 approaching on the opposite side to the Dash's captain.

I'm impressed at how, with this damage, the A350 crew controlled the rollout and stopped on the runway, and equally impressed at how tough the A350 structure appears to be.

Apart from the A400M prototype this is the first burnout of a composite wide body that I'm aware of. Composite structure must have a different flammability profile to aluminium alloy, and I wonder whether that explains the firefighting approach?
could be. i remember years ago, when they were in development, there were discussions in my company about new risks associated with a 787 or 350 crash sites, such as toxic smoke as well as particles akin to asbestos iirc which could be released in a crash. unfortunately, i did not follow up on what the final verdict was on these health risks for survivers and first responders....
Salina Chan is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:28
  #178 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,833
Received 208 Likes on 96 Posts
Originally Posted by AeroAmigo
From that information, providing the reported registration is correct we can assume that the aircraft was not broadcasting ADS-B data, would only be able to be tracked via MLAT and therefore there is no publicly accessible tracking data for it on the ground.
FR24's own blog about the event supports that interpretation.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:28
  #179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Between security and gate...
Age: 46
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Frankfurt_Cowboy
Well it's pretty non scientific but using FR24 I've had a look at a few random recent JL516 arrivals in to HND and for northerly arrivals they've all been on 34R, not seen a single L, I'd say I've looked at 12-15.
Originally Posted by VR-HFX
The critical question is...why was this aircraft landing on rwy 34R when most other landings were on 34L. This is an anomaly that if not flagged cause accidents.
Apparently, domestic flights arriving from North under Northerly winds land at 34R. See below and link.



https://www.mlit.go.jp/koku/haneda/p...glish_vol2.pdf
Tetsuo is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2024, 13:30
  #180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
One thing to note on the firefighting: The fire appears to be small, with the lonely 2 people extinguishing it from the front/back of the #1 engine, and then does appear to die down (around 18:21 local in the timestamp in the video below). However, then the fire comes back with a vengeance, and around 18:24:40 a third person appears and goes first to the firefighter in front, then to the one behind the engine, and seems to pull them away and tell them to abort. Don't they have radio contact?

Video: "JAL flight516 is on fire at HANEDA airport after landing", referenced in post #148, youtube identifier A0FCKcTuRHo
FabHK is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.