Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Nepal Plane Crash

Old 17th Jan 2023, 22:31
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BO0M
A bit of techinical info for the non ATR (and Jet) folk.

ATR has power levers, those power levers go into the notch (similar to the bus) at take-off (in normal ops) and they stay there until descent. Once you reach about 240 KIAS in descent the power levers come out of the notch and are the pilots to use. There is no auto throttle!

All ATR pilots will atest to the fact they practice circling approaches in the sim constantly and some operations around the world do them as their bread and butter daily. Outside of the EU/UK ATRs rarely operate from ILS to ILS. Due to this reason circling approaches get significant training as does stalling on approach, especially now in the UPRT environment.

Some observations:
- Flap 15 appears to be selected (it should have been 30 at that stage)
- Below 500 ft the stick pusher is inhibited but the shaker remains active
- Left turn onto finals requires the LHS pilot (if PF) to look outside but it can be a little awkward and often leads to elevator input (hence why we practice)
- Selecting flap 30 produces a significant balloon, so much so that you are taught to immediately trim (roughly 3 seconds nose down) to avoid this and maintain speed. Failure to do so can lead to losing 10-15 knots very quickly.
- The body angle appears far too high for an ATR in this stage of flight (indicating a low power setting and slow airspeed)
- When you comibine a number of the factors above with a loss of situational awareness you get what we see in the video. A stall on base turning finals.

I doubt there's an ATR pilot here who hasn't practiced this in the sim or an ATR TRI/TRE that hasn't witnessed a crew get close to this situation in the sim or real life.

I've noticed a few times the mention of the ATR becoming a handful at low speeds. This is not accurate! Yes the machine requires good speed control and a solid case of telling it whos boss, which can make it a handful for low time pilots or pilots who havent got the greatest handling skills. A handfull of power will generally get you away from these low speed situations very quickly if you manage to get yourself there.

My comments are in no way saying this is what happened in Nepal they are for those unfamilar with the ATR. There may well be other factors that the FDR and CVR will show during the investigation.
Previous posters have commented on significant handling differences between the ATR-42 and ATR-72.

What's your view on that ?
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 00:52
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Zombywoof
I hate to do this, but when was the last time a commercial airliner ran out of fuel?
These are the ones that come to mind:

Air Canada 143 "Gimli Glider," incorrect fuel load computation used following English/Metric changeover, fuel exhausted while cruising, glided to landing on deactivated runway, all survived
Avianca 52, out of fuel after missed approach, delayed multiple hours by weather while traveling up the E Coast, issues communicating fuel emergency w/ ATC, considerable loss of life
Air Transat 236, out of fuel when leak in one tank led to crew inadvertently cross feeding all the fuel out the leak, glided to landing at Lajes Air Base, Azores, all survived
United 173, ran out of fuel while investigating landing gear light failing to illuminate, crashed in suburban Portland with surprisingly little loss of life
Helios 522, ran out of fuel on A/P after crew incapacitated due to depressurization, cabin crew student pilot was seen briefly in the cockpit by F-16 before loss of power, presumably with supplemental oxygen tank from cabin, no survivors

And so on.

Of these, Air Transat is probably the most recent one? 2001. Helios was 2005 but loss of pressurization was the basic problem. I know I'm missing many.

NTSB search:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/search.asp...Anull%7D%5D%7D

Wikipedia has more:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airliner_accidents_and_incidents_caused_by_fuel_exh austion
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 01:03
  #243 (permalink)  
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I believe we need to differentiate between 42-300 and 42-500 which are somewhat different
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 01:53
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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They are different.
- 42 (either 300 or 500) flys a lot nicer and has very stable handling characteristics particulary during landing. Some models also have an extra stage of flap.
- 72 by its stretched nature is more difficult to fly and less stable especially during landing and crosswind conditions.

All that said it's a moot point, Yeti only operates 72-500 so theres no switching between types in their airline.

@ZFT I don't really see the relevance of differentiating between PEC and Non-PEC models (300 -500/600) of the ATRs. It bears no interest to the topic, moreover it comes down to pilot preference. Some pilots prefer the Non-PEC models because they aren't as slippery but apart from having to set the props yourself they are no different

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Old 18th Jan 2023, 02:33
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan
The cabin video was being live streamed to Facebook, must be a first.
Yes, it's insane. Between this tragic footage and the GoPro footage from the Su-25 ejection in Ukraine, I very much feel we have suddenly arrived in the future.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 03:51
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Aside from the wild posts trying to debunk the video, consider the forces the phone would have been under. It's not going to be crystal clear, smooth footage any way you slice it
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 03:59
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Any report as to why the resident, in their garden decided to video scan the sky towards the ATR72 ?
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 04:05
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Claybird
Also, don't forget BA038, a 777 (01/17/2008) which stalled on approach to EGLL due to ice crystals in the jet fuel clogging the FOHE of each engine. No casualties, thankfully only hull loss.
There was no engine stall and no aerodynamic stall. From memory the engines were still producing some power but insufficient power for a normal short final approach and normal landing.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 04:16
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Originally Posted by aeromech3
Any report as to why the resident, in their garden decided to video scan the sky towards the ATR72 ?
Perhaps filming something else, and their attention was drawn by the unusually low aircraft?

One of the clearest pieces of 9/11 video was (sadly) captured this way.

What is it that you're trying to get at here?
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 04:23
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Austrian Simon
However, the BBC story raises one more question: how could one access the mobile phone and get to the video without PIN/password in this time? This all doesn't fit together.

Servus, Simon
It's clear you don't understand how Facebook Live works.
Once the live stream has finished, Facebook usually process the video and it then becomes a normal Facebook post. It doesn't happen immediately.

And as you can see from the below, one of their friends has confirmed it was his friends who were streaming.
Vishal Koswal, 21, a close friend of the four men heard in the video, confirmed the authenticity of the video.

He identified the four men, all from Ghazipur district in the state of Uttar Pradesh, as 29-year-old Jaiswal, 28-year-old Anil Rajbhar, 23-year-old Vishal Sharma and Abhishek Singh Kushwaha, 23, who had left for Nepal on 12 January. Local police also confirmed their identities.
I don't think there's any doubt that the video is genuine and I can't see the point in any more incorrect straw clutching to try and "prove" it isn't. This is not elite, special technology, just a normal social media function that lots of people use all the time. Once the stream had stopped, the video is in the cloud and it doesn't matter what happens to the phone.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 04:26
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POKHARA, Nepal (AP) — Nepalese authorities on Tuesday began returning to families the bodies of plane crash victims and were sending the aircraft’s data recorder to France for analysis as they try to determine what caused the country’s deadliest air disaster in 30 years.

The flight plummeted into a gorge on Sunday while on approach to the newly opened Pokhara International Airport in the foothills of the Himalayas, killing all 72 aboard. Searchers found cockpit voice and flight data recorders on Monday, and on Tuesday shut off a dam to ease efforts to retrieve the last remaining body from the 300-meter-deep (984-foot-deep) ravine. Two more bodies were found earlier Tuesday.

The voice recorder would be analyzed locally, but the flight data recorder would be sent to France, said Jagannath Niraula, spokesperson for Nepal’s Civil Aviation Authority. The aircraft’s manufacturer, ATR, is headquartered in Toulouse.

The French air accident investigations agency confirmed it is taking part in the investigation, and its representatives were already on site.

(Source: DCNewsnow[dot]com)
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 04:28
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Originally Posted by aeromech3
Any report as to why the resident, in their garden decided to video scan the sky towards the ATR72 ?
he has youtube channel .
Nothing out of the unusual , he heard a plane arriving and decided to film it . As per him , the all planes coming to land for the runway 12 would have already turned by the time video starts , He noticed the plane coming closer , and didn't turn(continued on base). which was unusual . He mentions the plane losing some altitude , before twist and a crash . An extreme shock reaction , as it crashed 50 metres from him . https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...TE&usp=sharing

https://youtu.be/WlUesjkNCnM?t=64

Hi
s video Would be the most clear , showing the blades as well . Full HD video .

Last edited by Yo_You_Not_You_you; 18th Jan 2023 at 10:38.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 05:09
  #253 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 172_driver
Wasn't that similar to US-Bangla Q400 crash i Kathmandu? Experienced captain, young female FO, lining up for opposite runway to what ATC belived?
Nope.


US Bangla was in a league all of it's own. That was so far from rational decisions by a commander as you can get that doesn't involve an actual intent to cause harm.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 05:40
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Originally Posted by Austrian Simon

So far I found out that there was never a livestream out of the cabin, it was not possible to livestream for this user. Facebook permits livestreams only for users with more than 10,000 followers.
This is not true at all.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 06:05
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SLF here. Listen to the audio of the ground video. As previously stated one doesn't hear the engines as one would expect. Yo You states that the aircraft crashed 50 meters from the phone / camera. SIMULTANEOUSLY with the start of the left wing falling is the start of a medium-high frequency sound. Around 3KHz. Does anyone recognize what this sound is?
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 06:36
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Thanks for the confirmation about lack of autothrust and the stick pusher inhibition below 500 feet BO0M. I take the point that turboprop operators fly to a lot of less well equipped airports and therefore do this kind of approach all the time. However there are big differences around the world in how much co-pilots are allowed to actually land the aircraft. Obviously they have to learn some time. A few people have made the comment that the simplest solution often turns out to be the right one. In any case it is highly probable that the flight recorders will tell us what really happened relatively soon.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 06:44
  #257 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by piperboy84
Dragging it in at the back end of the power curve and pushed it too far resulting in a stall/spin? The kind of approach you’d do in a STOL into a short field.

I'll keep it brief...


No.


regards
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 06:50
  #258 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by CommanderCYYZ
The impact of the crash would have sent the phone hurtling. The likely hood of it landing in such a way as to film a fire - which is in no way intense enough - is minute.
As fire is all encompassing, the possibility of a camera NOT videoing the conflagration if it was live streaming is minute. This aircraft his with wing first, so the likelihood of an ignition source and fuel is almost certain... It is not often that video arises from inside an accident sequence as catastrophic as this, it is of significant safety engineering value to be analysed over time, but it is horrific as well.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 08:05
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Long time lurker here. Had to register to express my condolences to the relatives of those on board if any scan this forum in search of answers. I hope that a small crumb of comfort can be found in knowing with only seconds to impact everything was completely normal.

Also to say this to some members here - please stop with the conspiracy theories, It's all getting Sandy Hook at this point. The relatives have confirmed this is legit, and that should be the end of the matter.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 08:13
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Originally Posted by Tobin
Whether the cabin video is fake, I cannot say for sure, but some of the "analysis" "proving" it's fake is quite sad.
Be grateful that PPRuNe provides us with the ability to have a civilised discussion on the circumstances around an event.

IME, anyone having the temerity to post on Avherald disagreeing with Simon's "analyses" will find that not only does their post disappear, but they will be banned and their IP address blocked. I don't recall ever having seen the words "OK, I was mistaken in this instance" on there.

Happily, PPRuNe makes a welcome contrast.
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