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Worker ingested into engine

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Worker ingested into engine

Old 7th Jan 2023, 05:41
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
The air hookup is on lower left, reason for engine #1 being shutdown and #2 kept running till ground power was established.
Ramp worker got ingested by engine #2 in an attempt to open one of the cargo doors.
Like I stayed earlier the air hookup theory is why #1 would have been shutdown.
There is the huge question though, why would any competent ramp worker even approach the holds while an engine is still running? That is a huge no-no. The only thing that is allowed, is to hook up the ground power, nothing else. No one except the person with the ground power lead is allowed to approach an aircraft with a running engine, and that only after the aircraft has stopped and the flight crew confirmed that the brake is set. The air hookup has no relevance at all during arrival, only during engine start on departure is it relevant.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 10:31
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We have no rules regarding which engine if any is shut down on taxi in, whether APU needs to be started before second engine is shut down or not. Normally we just shut down the one with the least fuel remaining, if they are equal then maybe the one that will assist turning onto stand.

On short taxi-ins (or we occasionally forget), neither engine is shut down before GPU is connected. This has led to rare occasions of the crew shutting down an engine thinking it was (erroneously) the last running engine and completing the shutdown procedure including turning off the anti-collision light. The mistake can take many seconds to notice, a fuel feed error message, or longer, the reading of the shutdown checklist. Also, if the thrust lever isn't fully in idle position, turning the start/stop selector to 'Stop' will not result in the engine shutting down, another potential cause of the anti-coll light being switched off with a still idling engine.

Last edited by MerseyView; 7th Jan 2023 at 16:01.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 15:37
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Well, according to several Boeing Propulsion types (and engine company types) I've talked to over the years, yes they do. Not so much at takeoff, but during approach/landing (the marks can be fairly dramatic at idle - especially the twirly ones)
Typical approach/landing speed is > 200 km/h, this is >50 m/s. This implies, the bird needs to have (more than ?) hawk eyes to recognize the moving pattern at >200 m and having 4 seconds to conclude an imminent danger, decide to "move in the correct direction" and move away. Birds fly up to around 70 km/h, IE 20 m/s, though also need time to accelerate.

Some more figures:
- The human eye does seem to have an angular resolution of 0.013 degrees.
- Bird eyes up to 5 times better, the top-end being the hawks and so. I assume regular birds don't go better than 2 times the human, Though. I'd rather say less, because regular birds do have pretty small eye diameters.
- A rotating engine cone, assume 50 cm diameter, at 200 m (less than 3 times a B777-300ER length) gives an angular resolution of 0.14 degrees.
- To see something "moving" the visible size at the viewer's position should be roughly 10 times higher than the angular resolution of the viewer (yes, it's a bit strange to compare sizes with angular, though one probably gets it).
- Or so to say, the human eye is "just" able to see something moving at that distance, birds may or may not have it a little easier.
- The bird's angular resolution only applies when the light goes straight into the bird's eye, so a head-on (birds have eyes on the side, though birds eyes rotate) can easily reduce the effective angular resolution 5-10 times.

Or so to say, I humbly think, the bird's chances to escape an aircraft on landing/approach, based on seeing the whirling engine cone pattern(s) might be pretty remote. Let alone, the bird needs to have a look somewhat in the direction of the airplane to "see" the whirling engine cone, whirling.

The engine noise and noise of the turbulent airflow around extended flaps/landing gear, as well the enormous statue of an aircraft, might be significantly more impressive than the miniscule whirling engine cone pattern(s), if visible at all due to light conditions.

Feel free to correct.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 16:02
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
You really donít get it do you?
The air hookup is on lower left, reason for engine #1 being shutdown and #2 kept running till ground power was established.
Ramp worker got ingested by engine #2 in an attempt to open one of the cargo doors.
Like I stayed earlier the air hookup theory is why #1 would have been shutdown.
I never stated that it was the case just one of the possibilities till someone said you donít need air and thatís where the mudslinging started.

Then why did you say this?

"So no need for conditioned air? Warm or cold?
No air for ventilation, systems cooling or keeping potable water for the galley available?
Alrighty gotcha.
Well apparently they didn’t listen as that’s exactly what they did."


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Old 7th Jan 2023, 17:56
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What I do when I arrive with an inop APU is the same shutdown procedure I use as if the APU gen is working, all that happens is it goes dark in the cabin for a bit. I can't think of anything on board I need to keep powered up which is worth the risk of running an engine with ramp personnel in the vicinity who often don't know we need the GPU prior to shutdown.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 18:19
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Can you not call ahead to your handling agent?
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 18:34
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Originally Posted by hec7or View Post
What I do when I arrive with an inop APU is the same shutdown procedure I use as if the APU gen is working, all that happens is it goes dark in the cabin for a bit. I can't think of anything on board I need to keep powered up which is worth the risk of running an engine with ramp personnel in the vicinity who often don't know we need the GPU prior to shutdown.
With proper training, there's little risk, most countries in Europe don't even require an APU to be started for ground power to be attached. In fact, the UK is almost the exception and that isn't universal (Norwich).

The station can be warned by telex, on the radio etc. in advance about an inop APU. In the 21st Century, plunging my customers into darkness seems a little antiquated, never mind the fact that doing so followed by a complete restart on an electronic aircraft, on a short turnaround, is asking for trouble.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 19:56
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They're not even allowed to put the chocks in until the beacon is off where I am.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 20:02
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Sadly high levels of training and SOPs for ground handling isnít universal. In my travels I have witnessed many occasions where ground staff have been stood on stand as an aircraft enters, usually holding chocks or cones. I have even seen an A320 having its MLG being chocked with engines running !!😮





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Old 7th Jan 2023, 21:14
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Originally Posted by MerseyView View Post
With proper training, there's little risk, most countries in Europe don't even require an APU to be started for ground power to be attached. In fact, the UK is almost the exception and that isn't universal (Norwich).

The station can be warned by telex, on the radio etc. in advance about an inop APU. In the 21st Century, plunging my customers into darkness seems a little antiquated, never mind the fact that doing so followed by a complete restart on an electronic aircraft, on a short turnaround, is asking for trouble.
While I agree with you, if you operate into the UK and have to rely on Swissport to plug in your GPU you could be waiting a while, the emergency lights will provide sufficient illumination and a PA to the pax will explain the problem, powering down then up doesn't hurt.
Sorry but I've had an incident which could have endangered a ramp team member and I will never, ever run that risk again.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 23:38
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Originally Posted by HOVIS View Post
Then why did you say this?

"So no need for conditioned air? Warm or cold?
No air for ventilation, systems cooling or keeping potable water for the galley available?
Alrighty gotcha.
Well apparently they didnít listen as thatís exactly what they did."
Because so far that has been my (unverified) information.
  • Single engine taxi not authorized with APU inop
  • Left engine shutdown at the gate while waiting for GPU (presumably to allow air hookup)
  • Right side fatal accident.

I should have rephrased as that is ďallegedlyĒ what they did.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 08:07
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Was the GPU attached to the aerobridge or was it an apron based unit. For us the procedure is to shut down #1 and wait for the aerobridge to attach before the engineer plugs in the GPU when the GPU is provided via the bridge
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Old 11th Jan 2023, 03:30
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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N264NN returned to KDFW on 1/9/23 and appears to have returned to regular service.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 13:46
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NTSB prelim report out.
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/a...ort/106517/pdf
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 16:14
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
Because so far that has been my (unverified) information.
  • Single engine taxi not authorized with APU inop
  • Left engine shutdown at the gate while waiting for GPU (presumably to allow air hookup)
  • Right side fatal accident.

I should have rephrased as that is ďallegedlyĒ what they did.
A GPU supplies electrical power. Not air.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 18:58
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
Because so far that has been my (unverified) information.
  • Single engine taxi not authorized with APU inop
  • Left engine shutdown at the gate while waiting for GPU (presumably to allow air hookup)
  • Right side fatal accident.

I should have rephrased as that is ďallegedlyĒ what they did.
To clarify, the unfortunate ramp agent was ingested by the left (No 1) engine.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 04:02
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From the prelim report it appears:
Ramp worker ignored specific clearance instructions in pre-arrival safety briefing on engines running.
Ignored second 'safety huddle' instructions on remaining clear of ingestion zone.
Was almost blown over by placing cone behind running engine in violation of instructions and policy.
Ignore one or more shouted and physical hand signals to remain clear of the ingestion zone.
Ignored the rotating beacon on the aircraft, indicating 'engines live'.
Ignored the published corp ground operations manual on approaching aircraft with engines running or beacon on.
Ignored the loud noise from the turbine engine.

I'm not sure there is enough that can be done that someone can choose to ignore and violate SOP.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 05:17
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Originally Posted by ethicalconundrum View Post
I'm not sure there is enough that can be done that someone can choose to ignore and violate SOP.
Some people are not "cut out' for a particular role.
Was this the first time this worker put a foot wrong? Perhaps unlikely, given the number of violations recorded in the report?
If he had shown signs of poor adherence to safety procedures, did management consider removing him from that role?

Mjb
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 05:44
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I'm not sure there is enough that can be done that someone can choose to ignore and violate SOP.
Their supervisor and co-workers should have taken action as soon as the worker went behind the engine with the cones. Just one cone could be enough to do millions in damage if the running engine blew it into the path of another aircraft, to be inhaled as this person later was. That they were known to be knocked down as well is strike two. There should be no more chances after that.

Not only wasn't this person cut out for the job, neither was whoever was supervising them.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 13:14
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Originally Posted by HOVIS View Post
A GPU supplies electrical power. Not air.
Yes, we all know that.
One action does not exclude the other.
Left engine shut down for air hookup with right engine running waiting for GPU as was originally suggested as a possibility with the APU inop.
Appears the actual situation was even worse.
The person involved was a mother of three children.
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