Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cessna 150A Noseover on Santa Monica Beach

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cessna 150A Noseover on Santa Monica Beach

Old 30th Dec 2022, 16:55
  #21 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 5,350
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
And despite my knowledge , I did not do everything according to the briefings
That's why they are briefings, situations are not always as the briefing covers, and there is not always time. Brief to keep your mind agile, then use your agile mind to make the best decisions that time and circumstance permit. If everything were perfect, a safety briefing would not be necessary.

But line things up for your best outcome as early in the [pre] flight as possible.
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2022, 20:21
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,728
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I don't get shoes restricting swimming. You're going to swim on your back when wearing an inflated lifejacket. Never ditched, never did dunker course. But I could get into a capsized kayak, wearing a lifejacket and trainers, and roll it upright - when not tired and in calm water. (No wetsuit, Scottish spring sea temp, age till ~50. Demo at end of canoe session.)
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2022, 04:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: OnScreen
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 View Post
I don't get shoes restricting swimming. .....
It does increase drag in the glide and subsequent preparation for the accelerate/stroke phase, effectively reducing the speed buildup from the swim stroke. But that largely counts when you want to swim distances, vs. just stay afloat, stationary.

I seriously suggest keeping your shoes on in preparation of a crash landing on water to protect your feet, unless you are wearing really heavy shoes/boots. IF you escaped unharmed and decide to swim ashore, you can always remove your shoes. The human body floats with the head sufficiently above the water, when you keep other body parts in the water, so yeah, opportunities to remove your shoes.
WideScreen is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2022, 09:12
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 View Post
Question: Would it be safer to ditch in water just off the beach??
(This is an accident scenario that could happen to me.)
I agree with the poster above that the pilot likely intended to touch down on the hard wet sand. If you mean safer for humans, I think any of us would take that sand. Whether it is "safer" involves risk to people on the beach and in the water.

This was just unfortunate in the tumbling sequence. It had the potential for neck damage, and blunt force trauma without shoulder restraints. Not that great a situation for a 90 year old gentleman. The last seconds would have went better with a firm tail plant in the water when there was still elevator effectiveness to do that. Can't fault the guy for trying to make the sand, though.
cncpc is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2022, 10:27
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
When I was younger, I ditched a 172 with three passengers aboard after an engine failure about 3 back for the right runway at SFO. We were over the Bay and the only thing on land that appeared to offer a hundred yards or so of flat ground was the old San Mateo landfill site just east of Coyote Point. The wind was 23 knots out of the west. The touchdown area was a road among large rubbish piles. We were too low to get around into wind and had to take the tailwind. On short final to what might have been a fatal end, a truck pulled right in front of us onto the road. I used some of the considerably excess airspeed to zoom up till the prop stopped and then lowered the nose, shifted a bit left and bled off the airspeed as we headed for a small boat in the water. I had never had a lesson or briefing on ditching, but I had done a little investigation myself and I remembered that the ideal touchdown is tail first and hold it in if you can, to keep it from bouncing up and pitching the nose down.

We did the full drill. Both doors jammed open with items of clothing. Hands on seatbelt clasps, etc. We splashed down, with a 23 knot tailwind, close enough to the boat to splash water on the occupants. I went (fell) through the windshield. I broke water about ten feet from the aircraft and saw it had only gone onto its nose. The passengers were climbing out, one of them with his luggage. The three of them just changed their spots to stay dry as the aircraft slowly blew over onto its back. They ended up standing on the belly with water just around their ankles. I was treading water and holding onto a strut. A Coast Guard helicopter came from the airport, set up in a hover about 100 feet away, with a frogman in the door holding a blackboard asking if anyone was hurt. They slowly moved sideways towards us, but the rotor wash blew one guy into the water beside me and we waved them off and the three of them went the 75 yards to shore in two trips in the boat. The boat came back and I just held onto the transom, avoided the prop, and got a tow to shore.

What level of experience do you have to have to be able to pull that off? I had just gotten my PPL at Langley the week before. I had 53 hours total time, and under 25 PIC. I know we are all alive because some truck driver didn't check for aircraft on final for the dump.

I do want to make some short observations. Shoes? There is a long list of things more important than your shoes. You open the doors on all forced landings, not just water. Yes, it is because of the potential for airframe bending and not being able to exit, or rescuers not being able to get in to assist you. What the poster above said is good advice, pull the handle back on the open door so the bolt protrudes fully out. That will stop any closure. The most important thing is that the door is open. If it is open, it will stay open.

I post at the Canadian site as well and I see some of our good posters over here. Over there, we have had some discussions about engine failure/forced landing. The simple truth is that if you have lost power and are coming to earth somewhere not in your plans, remember this. If you arrive at the ground/water in the landing attitude, about five knots above stall, and touch down on land or sea under control at minimum flying speed, and you do not hit something that takes you from 50 mph to zero instantly, you will not be killed. Your passengers will not be killed. You will probably not even be injured. Most of you will have done your forced landing practices over nice green fields. There are some beauties there between Cloverdale and White Rock. But, you can end up doing your first forced landing in the ocean.

It is sad that the older gentleman passed.
cncpc is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2023, 16:53
  #26 (permalink)  
See and avoid
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have never heard of putting shoes in a door to keep it propped open, but I recall two times when passengers (new flyers) left the trailing edge of their long seatbelt hanging out the door when they closed it.

The loud slapping noise during the pre-flight run up alerted me to the problem, so I had them open the door and bring in the extra bit of belt.

Presumably that could be something else you could put out the door to keep it from relatching in an emergency.

I personally can’t imagine reaching down and fiddling with my shoes if I was trying to pay close attention to landing in an emergency situation.

After all, if you were driving a car, even on a wide empty highway, would you ever take your eyes off the road long enough to remove your shoes in a manner that you could maintain hold of them and stick them in the door? Not just kick them off, but be able to track them down and move them elsewhere?

I suppose it depends on how much time you have between the time you know you will make an emergency landing and the time that you land.
visibility3miles is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2023, 11:12
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 948
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by visibility3miles View Post
I have never heard of putting shoes in a door to keep it propped open, but I recall two times when passengers (new flyers) left the trailing edge of their long seatbelt hanging out the door when they closed it.

The loud slapping noise during the pre-flight run up alerted me to the problem, so I had them open the door and bring in the extra bit of belt.

Presumably that could be something else you could put out the door to keep it from relatching in an emergency.
While skeptical about the shoe thing, a lot of doors can latch with the seat belt hanging out.
punkalouver is online now  
Old 2nd Jan 2023, 11:38
  #28 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 72
Posts: 3,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by punkalouver View Post
While skeptical about the shoe thing, a lot of doors can latch with the seat belt hanging out.
Absolutely, plus you definitively do not want to release your belts before impact.
Once again , I am not arguing you must use your shoes, it is just what I have learned to do years ago and it made sense. especially for the types we used in my club which were almost exclusively with sliding canopy types ( Cap10, Robins DR400s, etc.) all very prone to jamming after a shock.
It is also an easy memory item in an emergency , and even today when I fly over water I always leave my left shoe unlatched for that eventuality.. Old habit , maybe a good luck charm as well, it worked well so far
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2023, 11:55
  #29 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 5,350
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
When I ride as a passenger in an airliner, I'm always concerned for those passengers who take their seats, and remove their shoes before even leaving the gate. In the most rare of circumstances where a rapid cabin exit is necessary, they probably won't have time and agility to put them back on. That could mean running through debris/fuel to get away from the plane. For similar reasons I would not remove my shoes at all, even in the water. I wore my lifejacket, shoes will not impede my swimming, as much as I'd want them when I reached dry ground. If you're flying a type where door/canopy jamming is a concern, then, like planning by wearing a lifejacket, take something expendable along to hold open the canopy should it be required - I'm sure that the ubiquitous airplane rag could be well suited to that task.
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2023, 01:50
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,937
Likes: 0
Received 50 Likes on 24 Posts
For similar reasons I would not remove my shoes at all, even in the water
Good post DAR, as anyone who had to walk over beds of wild mussels barefoot to get to dry land will tell you, painful, and lacerated feet being the result, don't ask how I know.

Airline passengers don't dress with survival in mind, thongs (foot ware type, not the other), shorts, singlets, nylon.



megan is online now  
Old 3rd Jan 2023, 02:12
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Poplar Grove, IL, USA
Posts: 940
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
It's been a while but I think we did dunker training with shoes on.
IFMU is online now  
Old 3rd Jan 2023, 04:00
  #32 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 5,350
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
When I did my dunker training, the instructor told us that he had trained the local police air unit crews the day before. They all thought they were awesome in the water, but not one could swim the length of the pool. The service boots were a factor, but he suspected that the simulated gun belt was the real problem. So, shoes rather than police boots, and yes, you can drop the gunbelt! That said, had they been wearing a lifejacket......
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2023, 11:57
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SAYE
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Probably why Twin Otter pilots in the Maldives are working barefoot
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-s...0the%20cockpit
avionimc is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2023, 00:12
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,937
Likes: 0
Received 50 Likes on 24 Posts
Some scenic floatplane operators in Oz are known to fly bare foot also, had questions asked of me by one passenger, never dabbled in floating fixed wing myself.
megan is online now  
Old 4th Jan 2023, 00:32
  #35 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 5,350
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
The Maldives are a rather idyllic float flying environment, so variations on the norms seem to work there. As for footwear, it's 99% sure that the next thing you're going to step on will either be beautiful sand or a smooth dock, and stepping into warm water at a island is likely. When I flew there for a few flights (and wore shoes), I was overdressed! The operators there have things down to a fine art, and are crewed very well. That is one of the few exceptions to the rule - wear personal protective equipment, and keep it on!

I do have a pilot friend who sank a Caravan there. He said he just climbed on top, and waited to be rescued!
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 10th Jan 2023, 14:54
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 26,330
Received 82 Likes on 40 Posts
On something like a Cessna 172 / 182 it would make total sense to unlatch the door, because in my eyes the design is poor, if the internal door lever is pushed down flat to the armrest to lock the door, it also locks the external handle meaning outside assistance cannot physically open it.
If the door is cracked open and the internal lever is then put in the locked flush position, if memory serves me correctly that should prevent the door from physically shutting as the latching arm will be protruding.
If you fly them try it... it may come in handy one day.
NutLoose is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.