Dallas air show crash
I've been in this with 63 other airplanes. There are groups of trainers, fighters, bombers and cargos that work together. But... we're only human and there will always be one pilot out of synch or just "not get it".
The P63 comes in fast, looks like he's got his attention on the fighters ahead but has inadvertently set up a greater turn radius than them, which sadly puts him in the same place in the sky as the B17. As Two's In says, he's belly up and unlikely to have been able to see the B17 in the seconds leading up to the midair. Would there have been a requirement (briefing or direct via radio) for the fighters to have sighted the bombers and avoid them laterally, i.e. pass clear, closer to the crowd? (which would make a lot of sense with the differing speeds)
RIP fellow aviators.
Gnome de PPRuNe
As UXB99 says, the Stearman rolling out on the runway was probably a few seconds clear of being amongst some of the debris. The B-29 can be seen awaiting clearance onto the runway too.
The P-63 is following pilot input immediately before the impact, I doubt that there was a control issue prior to impact.
A brutally bad day. It is part of the heritage to keep the memory alive of what prior generations did, these airshows are worthy of respect and continuation. Lets not do this particular evolution again.
2's In, you are correct. I assumed the P63 was faster than the B-17, there is not much difference in speed, and post #37 shows that the P63 was belly up to the B17 for at least the last 5-6 seconds. To see the traffic, the speed difference would need to be higher.
- GLOC is unlikely but not impossible.
- A medical event is always possible but that would tend to result in lowering g loads, and that would cause the flight path to degrade in a high bank turn, there is no onset of a descent part way through the turn. Keeping a high bank and reducing g reduces the rate of turn and that is not obviously evident, so the plane is likely to be under closed loop pilotage up to impact.
- assuming that this was accidental, then the P-63 seems to be working towards a rejoin of the P-51 and other preceding little friends, and that puts the line of sight for the pilot of the P-63 above his head, and to the left, well away from Texas Raider's. I would think that target fixation on the rejoin of relatively hard to see aircraft against the ground background may have distracted the P-63 pilot from his basic requirement to keep clear of what should be obvious traffic that he/she is overtaking.
A brutally bad day. It is part of the heritage to keep the memory alive of what prior generations did, these airshows are worthy of respect and continuation. Lets not do this particular evolution again.
2's In, you are correct. I assumed the P63 was faster than the B-17, there is not much difference in speed, and post #37 shows that the P63 was belly up to the B17 for at least the last 5-6 seconds. To see the traffic, the speed difference would need to be higher.
First and foremost a tragedy for the families of those who lost their lives.
Two more historic aircraft to be added to the long, long list of lost aeroplanes in avoidable accidents. No doubt the airshow brigade will be saying that life is a risk and it’s all worthwhile in the name of entertainment.
Very sad
Two more historic aircraft to be added to the long, long list of lost aeroplanes in avoidable accidents. No doubt the airshow brigade will be saying that life is a risk and it’s all worthwhile in the name of entertainment.
Very sad
First and foremost a tragedy for the families of those who lost their lives.
Two more historic aircraft to be added to the long, long list of lost aeroplanes in avoidable accidents. No doubt the airshow brigade will be saying that life is a risk and it’s all worthwhile in the name of entertainment.
Very sad
Two more historic aircraft to be added to the long, long list of lost aeroplanes in avoidable accidents. No doubt the airshow brigade will be saying that life is a risk and it’s all worthwhile in the name of entertainment.
Very sad
If you fly them, you risk crashing them.
I feel sad for the operators and crews who didn't want to see aircraft lost in this way and the families for loosing loved ones.
A very quiet day in the hangar today.
…
- assuming that this was accidental, then the P-63 seems to be working towards a rejoin of the P-51 and other preceding little friends, and that puts the line of sight for the pilot of the P-63 above his head, and to the left, well away from Texas Raider's. I would think that target fixation on the rejoin of relatively hard to see aircraft against the ground background may have distracted the P-63 pilot from his basic requirement to keep clear of what should be obvious traffic that he/she is overtaking.
Looking at the curving closure approach of the P-63 towards the B-17 may have presented the B-17 as almost stationary and ‘invisible’ to the P-63.
I base my thoughts on this video apparently taken from “Square 67 Shopping Center 6210 US 67 Frontage Rd Dallas, TX 75237”
T
When I worked with a well known US airplane restorer, formation flying (and thus air to air photography with their airplanes) was forbidden. This was because the progenitor of the excellent restoration process and STC for these airplanes was killed in an air to air with one of his own airplanes. I saw their point! Just fly the plane, forget the showing off!
When I worked with a well known US airplane restorer, formation flying (and thus air to air photography with their airplanes) was forbidden. This was because the progenitor of the excellent restoration process and STC for these airplanes was killed in an air to air with one of his own airplanes. I saw their point! Just fly the plane, forget the showing off!
It appears to be a loss of SA.
With the benefit of eighty plus years of technological progress since these aircraft first flew and given the frequency of collisions both on the ground and in the air with these long-nosed low wing aircraft, research into the possible benefits of enhancing situational awareness with fin, belly and wingtip cameras plus something like FLARM has got to be worth a look, if we want to continue seeing historic aircraft flying together.
I wonder what the separation rules were; bombers one side of the runway, fighters the other? Different altitudes?
Does each aircraft make a single pass or multiple in this display?
Lots of videos from different angles
(
). Consider if you want to see before looking.
edit: not sure link is appearing.
Does each aircraft make a single pass or multiple in this display?
Lots of videos from different angles
edit: not sure link is appearing.
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The tragedy affords an extra layer of tribute to this morning's remembrance event at the former 381st Bomb Group memorial at Ridgewell airfield in the UK.
Either a formation join gone badly wrong, or the fighter, being belly-up in the turn, lost track of where the bomber was. Less likely, but pilot incapacitation is also a possibility.
I think formation training, experience and recency would be one of the first things the investigators will look at. A terrible loss and I hope the hard lessons can be learned without the FAA choosing the easy path of bans/boring displays like we've done in Europe.
Doubtless like many here, I recall the massed pass at the end of Duxford's Flying Legends. Impressive. All assembled well out over the countryside, and flying past in a steady formation, which took a considerable amount of briefing.
In contrast, looking at shots of Dallas, this seems to have been a ragged and high speed formation, in a constant left turn, done over a city. The accident aircraft were well up in the sequence, with many others being visible in various degrees of turn and spacing just behind them. Quite how someone in a close formation could even contemplate being in a 45-degree banked turn, unlikely to have been briefed, just seems extraordinary.
In contrast, looking at shots of Dallas, this seems to have been a ragged and high speed formation, in a constant left turn, done over a city. The accident aircraft were well up in the sequence, with many others being visible in various degrees of turn and spacing just behind them. Quite how someone in a close formation could even contemplate being in a 45-degree banked turn, unlikely to have been briefed, just seems extraordinary.
Doubtless like many here, I recall the massed pass at the end of Duxford's Flying Legends. Impressive. All assembled well out over the countryside, and flying past in a steady formation, which took a considerable amount of briefing.
In contrast, looking at shots of Dallas, this seems to have been a ragged and high speed formation, in a constant left turn, done over a city. The accident aircraft were well up in the sequence, with many others being visible in various degrees of turn and spacing just behind them. Quite how someone in a close formation could even contemplate being in a 45-degree banked turn, unlikely to have been briefed, just seems extraordinary.
In contrast, looking at shots of Dallas, this seems to have been a ragged and high speed formation, in a constant left turn, done over a city. The accident aircraft were well up in the sequence, with many others being visible in various degrees of turn and spacing just behind them. Quite how someone in a close formation could even contemplate being in a 45-degree banked turn, unlikely to have been briefed, just seems extraordinary.
Obviously there will be lots of people shouting for banning air shows totally, as it always happens after such tragic events. Instead, I suppose the folks in charge will look at this very carefully as the professionals they are will draw their conclusions how to do better in avoidance next time. The CAF have been instrumental in keeping these planes flying. I do vividly recall many times Iˆve read articles by former and current members about how careful they are, people like John Deakin or Randy Sohn discussing this on various platforms.
As sad as this event is, as long as there is one airplane in the air there is a risk of an accident. We, as professionals, are in a never ending learning process on how to avoid them and the safety record of aviation today as compared to the "old days" speaks for itself.
That's the big negative with airshow flying. If there is a screw up, it seen by millions. There is no dignity in that whatsoever.
May their souls, R.I.P.
May their souls, R.I.P.
Last edited by RichardJones; 13th Nov 2022 at 12:35.
Pretty fast and almost intercepting RWY centerline instead of staying south
skadi
38 seconds to descend from a sustained ~1500-1600 feet and 155-170 knots to a final of 215 knots and 550 feet, with turn such that he could not see outside it? In a sky full of metal?
Related to me by someone connected to the airshow performance:
The Airboss had briefed the fighters to stay high and bombers to stay low, with the option for the fighters to share the bomber altitude block if everything looked clear.
Believing that it was, and that the bombers were clear of the runway centreline, Airboss cleared fighters to come down into the bomber block.
P-63 pilot did not expect traffic on the runway centreline and was looking left, into the turn, when the collision occurred.
The Airboss had briefed the fighters to stay high and bombers to stay low, with the option for the fighters to share the bomber altitude block if everything looked clear.
Believing that it was, and that the bombers were clear of the runway centreline, Airboss cleared fighters to come down into the bomber block.
P-63 pilot did not expect traffic on the runway centreline and was looking left, into the turn, when the collision occurred.
