Korean Air A330 off runway in Phillipines

[wondrousbitofrough]

Originally Posted by ex-EGLL

Breaking: Korean Air Airbus A330 Crash Lands In The Philippines (msn.com)

Breaking? Its broken...

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Rock the boat

Oops, if I offended you, I'm sorry.

Not at all, well said. Where's the Like button, mods?

[slast]

Aviation Herald Tuesday, Oct 25th 2022 09:11Z

"On Oct 24th 2022 Philippines Authorities as well as Korean Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport report, according to first preliminary investigation results a hydraulic failure had caused a brakes failure.

On Oct 25th 2022 it became known that the captain of the flight provided testimony that they suffered a hard touchdown on their second approach due to wind shear forcing them down, during the following go around a warning light regarding brakes came on. The crew therefore declared emergency, prepared for the emergency landing and performed a third approach in gusting winds and turbulence, a warning light regarding brakes pressure came on at the time of touch down and they could not slow down the aircraft."

[slast]

Just a query, mods

Since this is an ongoing and developing story with significant interest and comments, I am curious as to why the mods moved it from "Rumours and News"...... what are the criteria for this?

[olster]

Some great and prescient posts above. Particularly fdr and his assessment of nationality versus flying skill. Great pilots are made either naturally or with training or both regardless of origin. If you think the Koreans can’t fly have a look at their aerobatic team that currently knocks spots over all others. Nobody outwith the crew knows what really happened with this accident but in time honoured fashion people are prepared to instantly criticise from their armchairs before official investigation.

[punkalouver]

Originally Posted by fdr

[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.

Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well?
Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime?
How about... AF447?
How about... the Rostov on Don B738?
How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL?
How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country?
How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure,
How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground?
American Airlines flight 2341?
American Airlines flight 300?
American Airlines flight 567?
American Airlines flight 1586?
American Airlines flight 331?

etc,

should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed?

One really needs to look at accidents per million flights instead of assuming that an airline with three times as many flights having twice as many accident has a worse record. Of course, there are other variables as well including the era of the accident rate.

Regardless of the cause of the most recent accident, I’m afraid the KAL record from the not that distant past is not the best. Getting shot down twice due to navigation errors a little further in the past doesn’t look good either. Like most airlines, it seems that the last 15 years have been fairly good.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Originally Posted by fdr

That would put them in a bad position without doubt.

Both T/Rs appear to be stowed, which is odd. The main doors if they are open is definitely indicating a Green system failure which is going to be a pain, but would have been manageable, assuming that the BSCU was working, and there were no other failures. The blue and yellow are the TR powers respectively for Left and right engines... and as they are not extended, on an overrun, and a very slow deceleration, that suggests the guys had a compound problem. The fact they landed on an airport suggests that it wasn't loss of all 3 hydraulics... so am thinking Green + BSCU (G/A Sensing failure) which gives open inner gear doors, no T/R's, no ground spoilers, and alternate brakes only without anti-skid. That would put the aircraft in the weeds in most cases, outside of maybe Edwards.

Losing a HYD and another sensing system may suggest that the second landing was less than stellar, but, if no one died in this, am gonna give some latitude to the guys. The second landing may have some echoes of Iberia's -600... Going to be interesting to get the full report.... except it is CAAP land. KCASA will have more on it probably.

It's the LGCIUs that give the ground/flight sensing - which following a double failure, could lead to a manual gear extension and a landing with no reversers.
There is a procedure for double LGCIU failure however this shouldn't contribute to a degradation of wheel braking systems.
The accident report will make for enlightening reading.

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by fdr

[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.

Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well?
Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime?
How about... AF447?
How about... the Rostov on Don B738?
How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL?
How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country?
How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure,
How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground?
American Airlines flight 2341?
American Airlines flight 300?
American Airlines flight 567?
American Airlines flight 1586?
American Airlines flight 331?

etc,

should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed?

The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar.

KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to.

There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s.

As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people

On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed.

The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian.

You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open.

Pprune post of the year.
Thank you.

[YRP]

Originally Posted by fdr

[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that

Well said, sir.

And thanks for the interesting posts on the Lauda accident, tdracer and fdr.

[YRP]

Originally Posted by rock-the-boat

I wonder if anybody understands what this crew is facing not just today or this week but potentially for the remainder of their lives.

This is something that is distressing about our society.

We expect pilots/controllers/engineers/[insert profession here] to push the limits on performance, weather, costs. If one makes a safety call, eg a diversion, the response is often “why, it would have been fine”. Yet if something goes wrong, it is “how could you have done this”.

You can never prove the safety call was “necessary”, i.e. that there would have been an accident, and you can never prove that pressure caused an (in hindsight) poor choice.

And yet we pick on individuals who make hard calls.

[grizzled]

Originally Posted by slast

Since this is an ongoing and developing story with significant interest and comments, I am curious as to why the mods moved it from "Rumours and News"...... what are the criteria for this?

Perhaps it was moved to the "accidents" forum because it was an accident....

[Good Business Sense]

Originally Posted by safetypee

“RPVM can get pretty flooded in storms, braking action can be pretty low. The runway is crowned, but not grooved and has no PFC overlay. If there is a cross wind and heavy rain there can be ponding.”
#8 fdr

“always a black hole - not unknown, at night, to have no ILS with no VASIS/PAPI ..... always fun in a widebody. Always briefed "slippery when dry"
#14 GBS

Not questioning the accuracy of this information, but from where does it originate?
This appears to be classic local knowledge, or learned from experience, informal communication, yet most valuable in judging both the interpretation of published data, and adjustments in assessing local context - weather, runway, aircraft state, etc.

25 years of flying into Mactan in widebodies - not recently - rgds

[Pinkman]

T/R

I understand that dispatch with a T/R inop is an AD item but when the flight time is only 4.5 hours the weather must have been known… why dispatch this particular aircraft with a duff T/R to a challenging destination with appalling weather?

[krismiler]

There hasn't been an ILS in Cebu for a number of years, VOR and RNAV (GNSS) available for 04 and 22 with minimums a couple of hundred feet higher than a precision approach.

Two approaches, 13 minutes apart, followed by 40 minutes holding and then the third and last approach.

If that was the case, it sounds like he painted himself into a corner and had to get it on the ground. Manila is just over an hour away, they should have been able to divert after the first approach, after a second attempt they might have been a bit tight especially if damage had occurred, after 40 minutes subsequent holding it was probably a fuel emergency meaning they had to land

[slast]

Originally Posted by grizzled

Perhaps it was moved to the "accidents" forum because it was an accident....

.....that's in the news

[Liffy 1M]

Originally Posted by grizzled

Perhaps it was moved to the "accidents" forum because it was an accident....

As the thread-opener, I put it in Accidents and Close Calls, as that is where it appeared to me other recent accidents/incidents had been placed. I assume the Mods could move it if they consider that it would be better placed elsewhere.

[Pilot DAR]

I moved the thread from R&N to A&CC. I left an expiring link to it's location in the new forum. When it happened it was news. It'll fade from being news and still be an accident. If it's news, posters may post in R&N. If it's an accident, it'll be moved to A&CC. Accidents in the news may also be posted directly to the A&CC forum. If readers are interested in accidents and close calls, they are invited to read in that forum.

What we're working away from is an accident, which resides in R&N, being updated there (like accident report much later), where the update is not a rumour nor news, it's just an update on an accident.

[Cilba]

Well said!

[Cropduster]

Tdracer…I learn something every time I read one of your posts.
fdr - I nominate you for “post of the year.”

I am currently flying a Boeingsaurus, but spent nearly two decades on the ‘Busses. I really enjoyed the Airbus, especially the 330 but they certainly were sophisticated aircraft.

Not suggesting any shortcomings with the KA crew, but we had a few failures of the ground spoilers to deploy and the reversers to arm when flying on very slippery runways - especially following a very smooth touchdown. Something I rarely had to worry about. If I remember correctly, our procedure was to manually deploy the spoilers that would then send a secondary signal to allow the reversers to deploy. Does this ring any bells? Been quite a few years.

[fdr]

Originally Posted by YRP

This is something that is distressing about our society.

We expect pilots/controllers/engineers/[insert profession here] to push the limits on performance, weather, costs. If one makes a safety call, eg a diversion, the response is often “why, it would have been fine”. Yet if something goes wrong, it is “how could you have done this”.

You can never prove the safety call was “necessary”, i.e. that there would have been an accident, and you can never prove that pressure caused an (in hindsight) poor choice.

And yet we pick on individuals who make hard calls.

There is an odd statistic between decisions of professionals and amateurs. Under stress, the difference in the correctness of a call was apparently not statistically different, the same error rates existed. The identified difference was the time to arrive at a decision. Arguably it could be said that Professionals make their confident mistakes faster than amateurs. That was for simple, linear decisions. When the events get more complex, while there has been no study that I have come across beyond the relatively simple NDM/ADM heuristics, there could be an outcome where with complex and evolving, dynamic events that the professional starts to perform better, as they have their learned decision making heuristics and may thereby retain enough bandwidth to revisit bad decisions if detecting the slip between expected and actual outcomes. This is not a cultural matter beyond the matter of concern or input to a decision process. Standard B/S CRM there. The other side of that coin is that where the decision making is so routine and easy, that no one questions the accuracy of the decision that is made, the more emphatic and certain the statement of fact, the lower the likelihood that it will be challenged.

Flight crew make decisions in dynamic, time limited situations, and may have conflicting inputs, and too frequently under a pathological management system that does not want any adverse condition to occur or be reported. For every bad event that occurs where a crew get criticized justly or unjustly, there are tens of thousands of the same family of events that are being managed usually with crews of corresponding competency. Stuff happens, humans remain the means to cope with matters that may not be preprogrammed. Our failures are pretty darned obvious, successes less so unless in very unusual circumstances.