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Private aircraft crash in Baltic Sea

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Private aircraft crash in Baltic Sea

Old 7th Sep 2022, 12:48
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Originally Posted by 340drvr View Post
Still haven't seen any reports that verify "nobody in the cockpit." (They probably can't verify until maybe wreckage recovery.) There's a big difference between that and "can't see anyone up front" (frosted windows, etc.).
The cockpit in this aircraft is very small. It is impossible for a person, sitting in the captain seat to fall over, so that he can not be seen from outside. Thus, he must have left the cockpit. Fighter pilots flew very close to the jet and had plenty of time to choose position and check the windows.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 13:08
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Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Thankyou Sepp!
My pleasure!

For those who are interested, I've attached an oxygen system schematic and depiction of the pressurisation system controls (I don't know the accident airctaft's unit number, so included both types). Std checks include checking for flow at the crew masks... I have flown with private owners who wanted to just look at the gauge and say "sufficient".

To answer what next's query: yes, with an altitude dialled into the selector you get an amber light and ping at one thousand to go, the light goes off at 300 to go (or possibly capture, it's been quite a while since I flew one, and the noggin is full of new stuff) and, provided ASEL is armed, the aircraft will capture the selected alt. If you bust the level by 300 ft, you get the same ping and amber light.

Point of order from an earlier post: the 551 has a TOM limited to 12,500lbs. When I passed my 500-series rating back in 89 (in a UK-reg 550) it came with the 501 and 551 included. I understand other authorities treat the aircraft differently (although the 551 is for all intents and purposes identical to an equivalent 550, except for various placards, the ramp and TOM restrictions, and a slightly different panel layout for single pilot ops).


C550/551 oxygen system schematic




C550/551 pressurisation control panel

Last edited by Sepp; 7th Sep 2022 at 14:05.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 13:16
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Originally Posted by Discorde View Post
An aircraft dropping through the levels at a very high rate of descent might trigger an avalanche of interreacting TCAS RAs in surrounding traffic which in turn might jeopardise safe separations.

Can modern ATC and TCAS systems adequately deal with such an event? (I ask as someone who retired from the business 14 years ago.)
To my understanding the adverse effect is negligeable, the case is well understood and contained by ACAS II specification.

Upon closer inspection, the actual RAs caused by the hypothetical airplane slicing through busy levels from the above will not be that many. Without ATC coordination that is.

(Answering as someone who stopped teaching TCAS 7.0 vs. 6.04 in EUR RVSM airspace also 14 years ago )
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 13:51
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Yesterday I spoke to a line engineer who works for various companies in Europe on a few biz jets types and he remarked that when some of these aircraft are on longish layovers a procedure is to turn off the oxygen valve in hot conditions to stop any leaking. Anyone hear of this procedure?
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 14:02
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
To my understanding the adverse effect is negligeable, the case is well understood and contained by ACAS II specification.

Upon closer inspection, the actual RAs caused by the hypothetical airplane slicing through busy levels from the above will not be that many. Without ATC coordination that is.

(Answering as someone who stopped teaching TCAS 7.0 vs. 6.04 in EUR RVSM airspace also 14 years ago )
Thanks for that. It comes down to risk assessment from competing requirements. It would indeed be very unlikely (and very unlucky) if an aircraft initiating an emergency descent for any reason before coordination with ATC happened to collide with another not far below it. A delay before initiating descent might subject cabin crew and passengers to risk of hypoxia (because their masks do not supply oxygen under pressure) but might prevent a catastrophic loss of life resulting from a midair collision.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 14:07
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Originally Posted by Discorde View Post
'Turning out of the airway' might be impossible in some congested regions of airspace with many aircraft on direct routings, such as the NE or SW US or NW Europe.

An aircraft dropping through the levels at a very high rate of descent might trigger an avalanche of interreacting TCAS RAs in surrounding traffic which in turn might jeopardise safe separations.

Can modern ATC and TCAS systems adequately deal with such an event? (I ask as someone who retired from the business 14 years ago.)
The country's AIP will advise about remaining in, or turning out of an airway during an Emerg. Des, which is why I said 'usually' and is something you need to be aware of in advance.

As for TCAS, well that's why one of the PM memory actions for Emergency Descent is to select TCAS to TA only: Your own aircraft won't then be asked to react to conflicts, but any others around - who are more capable to respond - will be.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 14:13
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Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
Anyone hear of this procedure?
No. I have been flying 500-series Citations (Bravo, Ultra, Encore) since 15 years and have never heard of that practice. On all the ones that I flew and still fly the oxygen tank shutoff valve is not accessible without using tools anyway, completely out of reach so to say.
Many of these aircraft still carry an emergency oxygen bottle in the cabin though (intended to be used for passengers with health issues). If the pilot of this flight had an issue with his oxygen system he might have tried to get to that emergency bottle. That might explain why he could not be seen in the cockpit.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 14:40
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
As for TCAS, well that's why one of the PM memory actions for Emergency Descent is to select TCAS to TA only: Your own aircraft won't then be asked to react to conflicts, but any others around - who are more capable to respond - will be.
Sorry, not the OEM guidance on the types you are familiar with. As a result of the risk assessment, TA/only is not a part of the procedure in any of the phases (memory, ECAM, QRH).

Exactly the opposite, in the case of a justified RA during the descent it is significantly better to observe it even with the slightest change of V/S to increase the chances of the other plane getting out of the way. The crew is better off being informed than clueless. Context is important here, any such RA will only be triggered in the descent (as a result of) thus in a phase of the EMERG DES procedure which is no longer critical.

The key survival points are actually only 2: Establish the descent, get the crew on oxygen (alphabetical order). What kills, again and again, is when crews don't understand the time to act is now.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 14:54
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
...
Many of these aircraft still carry an emergency oxygen bottle in the cabin though (intended to be used for passengers with health issues). If the pilot of this flight had an issue with his oxygen system he might have tried to get to that emergency bottle. That might explain why he could not be seen in the cockpit.
That is a very good point, that is. In our old 500, the theraputic oxy bottle was at the back of the cabin. 550s didn't have one.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 16:04
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Probably a daft question but I presume the O2 cylinder pressure gauge is readable from somewhere in the cockpit on this a/c type ?
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 16:18
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
The key survival points are actually only 2: Establish the descent, get the crew on oxygen (alphabetical order). What kills, again and again, is when crews don't understand the time to act is now.
Hell, no!! The first point is always to don O2-masks, establish communication and only then initiate the emergency descent. Never the other way around. Never ever.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 18:10
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Originally Posted by Jack D View Post
Probably a daft question but I presume the O2 cylinder pressure gauge is readable from somewhere in the cockpit on this a/c type ?
Yes it is at the far right side of the instrument panel. A purely pneumatic gauge that requires no electricity to work and will always show the pressure in the oxygen pipe coming into the cabin.
There is a remote chance that it will display the pressure of oxygen trapped in the system in case the valve of the oxygen tank was closed. Therefore it is usual practise is to press the test knob of each crew oxygen mask a couple of times, thereby releasing oxygen through the mask, and watch if the pressure indication stays constant.
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 23:55
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Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
Yesterday I spoke to a line engineer who works for various companies in Europe on a few biz jets types and he remarked that when some of these aircraft are on longish layovers a procedure is to turn off the oxygen valve in hot conditions to stop any leaking. Anyone hear of this procedure?
It wouldn’t be unusual in case of a leaky mask.
Or upon arrival requested an oxygen top off and the bottle valve was left closed.
Without wearing the shoulder harness it’s possible to end up with the upper body slumped over on the empty co-pilot seat.
I find it very challenging to have to hand fly a single pilot fighter at FL360 close enough to be able to see any but the very obvious, no face in the window.
In the case of Steward Payne’s Learjet the windows were also frosted over.
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Old 8th Sep 2022, 04:33
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Ref to Hogg and B2N2, Whilst O2 bottle might have an over-pressure relief (overboard) it would need the likes of a fire to cause bottle pressure to reach that relief level; sub zero conditions might cause seals to leak and I had this once with a B747 classic (bottle O2 stowage in forward hold) where it almost lost all its O2, only luckilly at a USAF station and they had plenty. As per Sepp's schematic, the aircraft had remote fill point, if the bottle is shut off you cannot fill. British built aircraft had left hand thread fill union (not aware of Euro etc) USA built had right hand; some Countries / airports do not allow on-board O2 re-charging; in fact in Asia there are some major airports which do not allow O2 on base and I have had to remove bottles and have them taken off airport. It is possible, that a long layover procedure might be to close O2 bottle, but this is not standard and likely a maintenance task; if left closed then the pre-departure check of masks would quickly dispel the manifold pressure and the bottle would read zero!
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Old 8th Sep 2022, 05:06
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My training was to don the mask, begin descent (veering off track if necessary) and then lastly put out a Mayday.
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Old 8th Sep 2022, 06:27
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts! View Post
Hell, no!! The first point is always to don O2-masks, establish communication and only then initiate the emergency descent. Never the other way around. Never ever.
How long may it take to estabish communication with ATC? 1 minute, easy may be more. With 30 seconds of usable conscience at 30+ thousand feet if things go really wrong with fast dropping cabin altitude that is a Helios 522 recipe. With two pilots, tested O2 system and slow reducing cabin pressure a possible way. But think an Aloha airlines 243 event at 30000. It happened at 24000 feet which is much more survivable if you go down quick. Communicate comes last. You may set 7700 while descending, and then talk to ATC if the descend and O2 is established.
The captain is in command not ATC. In an live threatening emergency all air traffic regulations come in second.
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Old 8th Sep 2022, 07:25
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Perhaps we should not overexpress individual drills that have slight variances dependant on the SHELL of day. See note about the alphabetical order above.

The stick seems to be of identical lenght, only the lighting casts a different shadow.





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Old 8th Sep 2022, 08:22
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Sorry, my bad, (#88), I was thinking of engine failure actions

Time for some revision !
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Old 8th Sep 2022, 10:07
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Perhaps we should not overexpress individual drills that have slight variances dependant on the SHELL of day. See note about the alphabetical order above.
Individual drills? I can only assume you're thinking of a scenario where you are loosing cabin pressure but the warning horn for excess cabin altitude has yet not gone off?

For a proper decompression with all bells & whistles I can't believe anyone trains other than get the oxygen mask on first!?
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Old 8th Sep 2022, 11:07
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Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
The captain is in command not ATC. In an live threatening emergency all air traffic regulations come in second.
It is not about regulations , it is about common sense . The scenario of a rapid decompression always assumes a working oxygen system and always assumes you put on your mask quickly as the first action . It assumes you stay concious .
In this case the situation is stabilized enough to have few seconds to at least announce an emergency descend to ATC .

If you are about to cross another aircraft 1000 feet below you and just push the column hard forward no atc in the world will have time to sort out anything .

Finally : its about you , if you crash in another aircraft nobody will sue you , if not nobody will sue you either for an unanounced emer descend but you should use common sense if it is really that smart to just go into a dive when your mask is on and working .


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