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Private aircraft crash in Baltic Sea

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Private aircraft crash in Baltic Sea

Old 5th Sep 2022, 14:04
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Sorry, but I'm not speculating.
​​I've got good info about the ONLY communication.
It was me speculating, based on your information

The first action any pilot should take following a decompression is to get the mask on. Not descending, not trouble shooting, just get the mask on. (later you can do the rest...)
If it's true that the communication was of poor quality, that could indicate the pilot did exactly what he was supposed to do - i.e. got the mask on. Speaking through the mask microphone may produce a lot of static.

The mystic part is that didn't prevent the pilot becoming incapacitated, hence I was speculating there was no O2 coming to the mask. If the masks are of the same design as airliners - diluter demand - you will still breath air but it won't be enriched with O2.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 14:24
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Originally Posted by 172_driver View Post
It was me speculating, based on your information .
The mystic part is that didn't prevent the pilot becoming incapacitated, hence I was speculating there was no O2 coming to the mask. If the masks are of the same design as airliners - diluter demand - you will still breath air but it won't be enriched with O2.
From memory 100% is selected in operations I have been a flying spanner. Perhaps airliner crew might confirm the drill!
As a side, working on AA aircraft in the 1970's the cleaning of O2 masks was a night stop task, reason: one of 2 man crew had to be masked at cruise altitudes, I think it was above 25000', this was in the days before the boxed sweep on masks as they hung from a lanyard; and also when one crew member left the flight deck.

Last edited by aeromech3; 5th Sep 2022 at 14:49.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 14:28
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Relative to the “Hobby Pilot” moniker,
on this side of the pond, a type rating is required for all jet aircraft. It is conducted to ATP standards. I would assume this is an EU standard as well.
No doubt the guy screwed up as he’s dead, but impugning his level of training is not super appropriate. Sounds like a system failure that got by him in a catastrophic fashion.
Never really heard anyone fault the Paine Stewart flight crew (who both presumably screwed up, neglected to put on their quick dons, and passed out from hypoxia)

(Its not like this guy was was a well-trained ATPL who held a perfectly flyable Airbus in a stall from 40+K ft with multiple more senior pilots in attendance until it impacted the water and killed 2 or 3 hundred people.)

Last edited by 421dog; 5th Sep 2022 at 14:40.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 14:37
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From memory 100% is selected in operations I have been a flying spanner.
Yes, you're right, it should be 100%.

In the UPS6 accident the captain left his seat, never to return, after his mask failed. Presumably due to the fire.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 15:33
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I was simply expressing my opinion that someone who flies his own personal aircraft every once in a while (and was apparently, as per the press, grounded for a considerable amount of time until recently because of ill health) will face bigger challenges in the event of a catastrophic failure than someone who is a commercial pilot and flies day and day out, e.g. when it comes to memory items and acting instinctively. Someone with 1 flight hour is as much type rated as someone with 15.000 flight hours, but I don't think anyone would regard them to be on the same level when it comes to handling potentially catastrophic, unusual problems. All I was saying that because of this it might take such a pilot slightly longer to assess the situation correctly, trouble-shoot appropriately etc. and at 36.000 every second counts. It does not mean that I am blaming anyone.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 16:21
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RIP all

Pressurisation problem Quick call and thinking of holding altitude or decent
'Agitated passengers on your shoulder', Autopilot on if not already on (forgot it's set to climb?!?)
Told there's a whistling problem from near a door or window in the back . .
Go for a very quick look ??
Don't suppose we will ever know for sure
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 16:23
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Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems that his daughter was one of the 3 pax on board and also a licensed pilot.
I presume she was also qualified to fly her father's Cessna airplane.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 16:24
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1979 - that airplane was 43(!) years old.
No longer economical to operate in a charter environment, new paint and interior to be sold off to a private owner who was of age as well.
Doesn’t matter if a type rating needs to be flown to ATP standard, that’s a matter of training and only needs to be demonstrated once.
Maintaining proficiency is an entirely different animal.
Even being legal to operate doesn’t equal safe.
Let’s not pretend this was an unfortunate unavoidable accident.
This tragedy would have been entirely avoidable with a 2-pilot professional crew.

Last edited by B2N2; 5th Sep 2022 at 16:44.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 16:54
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
1979 - that airplane was 43(!) years old.
No longer economical to operate in a charter environment, new paint and interior to be sold off to a private owner who was of age as well.
Doesn’t matter if a type rating needs to be flown to ATP standard, that’s a matter of training and only needs to be demonstrated once.
Maintaining proficiency is an entirely different animal.
Even being legal to operate doesn’t equal safe.
Let’s not pretend this was an unfortunate unavoidable accident.
This tragedy would have been entirely avoidable with a 2-pilot professional crew.
I’ve gotta call bs…

I challenge you to find anyone, anywhere, who’s buzzing around (legally and insured) in a jet, single pilot, and isn’t required to undergo recurrent training annually, which requires at a minimum:
1)somebody trying to kill him in a simulator for at least 6 hrs
2) An IPC
3) A functional equivalent of a BFR
and,
4) A bunch of ground school
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:03
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Oh, and parenthetically,(as an AME) after age 70, most insurance companies this side also require a real, live, FAA medical annually from any pilot of anything more complex than a 182…
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:09
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Originally Posted by 421dog View Post
I’ve gotta call bs…

I challenge you to find anyone, anywhere, who’s buzzing around (legally and insured) in a jet, single pilot, and isn’t required to undergo recurrent training annually, which requires at a minimum:
1)somebody trying to kill him in a simulator for at least 6 hrs
2) An IPC
3) A functional equivalent of a BFR
and,
4) A bunch of ground school

I said Legal does not equal Proficient.
You’re also presenting it like it’s 4 different courses of training. By your username you know they’re rolled into one.
Canned ground school which is the same every year as it otherwise requires reapproval by insurance compagnies or authorities. Same three Systems covered. Pressurization, Electrical and Hydraulic.
3/4 of the sim profiles are flown on autopilot as automation is prioritized in single pilot operations. Five approaches on autopilot and one hand flown ILS.
Single engine missed approach is flown on autopilot.
Most instructors at providers such as CAE and Simuflight dislike these owner/pilot type ratings as the majority expects to be babysat.
There is also no limit on the repeat sessions unlike with a career pilot.
This character sued after his training provider failed him.
https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...ke/7701982002/
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:18
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
I said Legal does not equal Proficient.
So are you asserting that this guy was flying around uninsured?
I, of course have no information to the contrary, but it at strikes me as odd that a bigwig exec would fly bareback with his family in a $1-2M
airplane which would only likely cost him $10k or so to cover hull and liability annually…
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:20
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Originally Posted by 421dog View Post
So are you asserting that this guy was flying around uninsured?
I, of course have no information to the contrary, but it at strikes me as odd that a bigwig exec would fly bareback with his family in a $1-2M
airplane which would only likely cost him $10k or so to cover hull and liability annually…
I never said he was uninsured either.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:21
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He owned several business charter outfits, it's very likely that he had the correct paperwork done.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:38
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I’ll bet he had a bunch more hours than a lot of us who have flown for a living in more than “Cessnas”
it sucks that he’s dead, but cut him whatever slack is appropriate.
I’m sure they all died trying to do the right thing.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 18:04
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
I said Legal does not equal Proficient.
You’re also presenting it like it’s 4 different courses of training. By your username you know they’re rolled into one.
Canned ground school which is the same every year as it otherwise requires reapproval by insurance compagnies or authorities. Same three Systems covered. Pressurization, Electrical and Hydraulic.
3/4 of the sim profiles are flown on autopilot as automation is prioritized in single pilot operations. Five approaches on autopilot and one hand flown ILS.
Single engine missed approach is flown on autopilot.
Most instructors at providers such as CAE and Simuflight dislike these owner/pilot type ratings as the majority expects to be babysat.
There is also no limit on the repeat sessions unlike with a career pilot.
This character sued after his training provider failed him.
https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...ke/7701982002/
Wow.
all of us who fly pressurized * Turbine or Jet aircraft are functionally subject to the same rules. I personally could do q24 month recurrent on my pressurized piston stuff, but am still annually on turbines.
The place I fly with (RTC in Tampa Fla, USA) is collocated with a simulator manufacturer, and has never failed to disable the stec 55 autopilot in either their 421 or king air sim on an engine failure.

I’ve shut more than a few engines in my life,(for real) likely with a lot less experience than this guy, and have never scratched an airplane.
Cut him some slack until you have objective evidence that he wasn’t flummoxed
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 20:22
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Seem to recall a somewhat similar incident occurring some years back with an airliner, cannot recall type. Fairly sure it was in Europe. Buzzed by fighters to "inspect", crew were seen to be unconscious.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 20:44
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Seem to recall a somewhat similar incident occurring some years back with an airliner, cannot recall type. Fairly sure it was in Europe. Buzzed by fighters to "inspect", crew were seen to be unconscious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 20:49
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Originally Posted by 421dog View Post
I’ll bet he had a bunch more hours than a lot of us who have flown for a living in more than “Cessnas”.
The media reporting that describes the pilot as the owner of "Quick Air" is misleading. One smallish division of his business conglomerate is aviation (ambulance flights, MRO), but he was never a pilot-turned-business-owner. This guy was an engineer who owned one of the largest plant construction businesses in Germany with an annual turnover of 150m EUR and 1.500+ employees. This aviation stuff was really just a side-show because he had a personal interest in aviation and at some point in his life when he had money to spare he ventured into that area (one of his sons is running that aspect of the family business, by the way). He had 50 years of flying experience under his belt, sure, but running his business empire did not allow him to fly that much. So yes, he was type-rated, he was sort of experienced, but not necessarily proficient. Looking at the flight history of the aircraft, it was flown typically 2 or 3 times a month (and not necessarily by him). Before the doomed flight, it had sat on the ground at XRY for 8 days.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 21:07
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FR24..?

Does anyone have a link to the FR24 radar of this flight, to see the altitude hold.
It seemed to overfly its' destination, then did two spiral dives into the ocean.
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