Unintentional Flight Into IMC.

[Piper.Classique]

T21 and T42. Tandem two seaters - T31, Blanik, Bocian, K7, K13, ASK21 series german gliders etc, have panels in both cockpits. How else would you be able to teach people to fly?

same way that you do in a Piper Cub. Peer round the students head when you need to, otherwise fly the attitude. Most two seaters do have some sort of panel for the instructor, however. Not many countries allow gliders to cloud fly. France doesn't UK does as does Poland. And yes, I am a glider pilot, ex instructor on glider and power.
If cloud flying isn't legal then not much point fitting cloud flying instruments.

[blind pew]

That’s the problem..the mentality that if it’s illegal then don’t fit them, yet a parachute is mandatory in France! Flying comps in France you have to remove or blank the turn and slip...was it not a preworlds when Binder got caught out crossing a col and died when an attitude instrument could have prevented his death.

[Jump Complete]

Originally Posted by blind pew

That’s the problem..the mentality that if it’s illegal then don’t fit them, yet a parachute is mandatory in France! Flying comps in France you have to remove or blank the turn and slip...was it not a preworlds when Binder got caught out crossing a col and died when an attitude instrument could have prevented his death.

I’m really struggling with the thought process that prohibits a life-saving piece of equipment. Does everyone take the rule seriously (the having the instrument available bit, not the no cloud flying bit) it or just put a post-it note over the instrument and say “I promise not to be a naughty boy and take it off once airborne?”

[Prop swinger]

Same in US comps, I believe, & probably elsewhere. Blind flying instruments have to be removed or made inop. to prevent a competitor gaining an unfair advantage.

[blind pew]

Post it

Nope..had to be properly blanked so that it was impossible to use. Part of the problem is that the ffvl national centre is at St Aubin in the Alps Maritime, they have daily soundings and do not suffer the type of weather further north or closer to the Atlantic.
Running the worlds there gave the french team an unfair advantage.
plus ça change

[Olympia463]

Originally Posted by Piper.Classique

same way that you do in a Piper Cub. Peer round the students head when you need to, otherwise fly the attitude. Most two seaters do have some sort of panel for the instructor, however. Not many countries allow gliders to cloud fly. France doesn't UK does as does Poland. And yes, I am a glider pilot, ex instructor on glider and power.
If cloud flying isn't legal then not much point fitting cloud flying instruments.

A reminder: this thread is about UNINTENDED flight into IMC. I agree that you might be able to teach flying by peering over someones shoulder but teaching correctly banked turns to a novice is easier if you have a T/S to show what is happening. A string might do the same of course but is not as good.

I don't know what the relevance of the French competition regulations is here!

[blind pew]

France

To become a world champion one needs to push one's limits which is what many pilots do in competitions and displays, a gyroscopic instrument is a safety factor like a parachute if it all goes wrong. Unfortunately one needs 3,000ft plus for a 50% chance of survival with a parachute.
I find it bemusing that an instructor needs the relevance of reducing safety pointing out.
The last french comp I attended as a spectator saw two fatalities and one broken glider on the airfield whose pilot tried to out run a sudden squall which reduced the visible to nearly zero.

[Piper.Classique]

​ teaching correctly banked turns to a novice is easier if you have a T/S to show​​​​​​

I don't think so, personally but that's not relevant to this discussion. Blind flying instruments are only a safety feature if the pilot is trained in their use. If cloud flying isn't legal then that would only be simulator training. You could argue that it was good enough but I would respectfully disagree. Proper training in cloud flying is an excellent thing, but no simulator available to a glidng club gives much idea of what its like inside a turbulent cloud. It's rough, wet, and can be thoroughly unpleasant. It's nothing like cruising a Pa28 between VORs or even flying a hold then an ILS. Speed limiting airbrakes make it less hairy, but these guys were flying a ridge, which put them pretty close to the terrain. Not a good place to go into cloud. More emphasis on not getting blown back into the sink would have been useful. The cloud certainly added another problem, but I suspect even without that they would have been struggling.



​​​​​

[blind pew]

Escape

Would disagree..in this case it was about heading into wind or away from the ridge with level wings in a trimmed glider. That sort of cloud is rarely turbulent or very wet..done that in both gliders and more difficult paragliders whose performance is affected by moisture and do not have the speed range. Have just bought an xc tracer maxx that not only has heading info but accelerometers giving wind, flarm, ground speed and position and can be tracked. Nothing like buying a bit of extra safety.

[blind pew]

Caught out

Two decades ago I was slope/ wave soaring a slope in the lee of mount Brandon in Kerry around 400 ft agl in a phoebus C in which I had replaced the turn and slip with an ex RAF horizon and an inverter. To windward and below I saw a cloud forming so turned into wind and turned on the horizon. Unlike a turn indicator it was unusable for several minutes but fortunately I had a second generation gps which was fast enough to keep the wings level. I was engulfed in cloud within 30 seconds and briefly considered bailing out. A 360 would have seen me impacting the mountain.

[nevillestyke]

Originally Posted by blind pew

Nothing like buying a bit of extra safety.

I always feel that, as a paraglider pilot, the best bit of safety kit that you could get would be a hanglider.

[blind pew]

Would agree but I have enough problems at 71 hiking up a mountain with 15kg on my back and there is a slight logistical problem of getting back after an XC as even with an OAP bus pass I’m not so sure that a bus driver would let me take a hang glider with me..and taxis don’t have roof racks!
Now if we could wind the clock back to the good old days of the British Empire I could use a hangy wallah.

[Jim59]

Turn and slip indicator or turn coordinator is definately usefull, though I prefer the turn coordinator. An attitude indicator even better.

I agree that turn coordinators are preferable in most light areoplanes, where modest angles of bank are used in IMC. Thermalling in gliders, whether IMC or otherwise, involves angles of bank of 40 to 45 degrees where a T&S is a better instrument. My glider has both T&S and a horizon.