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B17 Banked into bad engine..?

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B17 Banked into bad engine..?

Old 2nd Oct 2019, 22:57
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B17 Banked into bad engine..?

Looking at the Flight radar track of the B17 which crashed today, there seems to be a sudden banking into the side with the bad engine. I don't fly multi-engine, but I thought you were supposed to limit the bank to less than 5 degrees that way...

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/N93012/history/20191002/1348Z/KBDL/KBDL/tracklog
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 23:01
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If your speed is adequate it doesn’t matter.
Used to be an emphasis point when I taught ME.
You can bank into the ‘dead’ side all day long if you fly a safe speed.
Now here is my question, an engine out ( inboard at that) should be a complete non-event on a 4-engine aircraft.
Especially considering their light weight as they’re not carrying ammo or bombs.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 11:57
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there seems to be a sudden banking into the side with the bad engine....but I thought you were supposed to limit the bank to less than 5 degrees that way...
I suspect you are thinking about the use of bank into the good engine used to cancel out slip. A combination of 2 or 3° bank and half a ball out provides the optimum performance for a light twin. A limit of 5° bank into the good engine is the certification limit on the use of such bank for the purposes of determining Vmca, so a manufacturer cannot use more than that amount in order get the Vmca (lower redline speed) figure down. This angle of bank is not an operational limit.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 14:18
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Hi Oggers, I seem to recall that during an AAIB report into a fatal accident at our local airport, it was mentioned that any bank exceeding 5 degrees into the bad engine would be irrecoverable, and the airplane would continue to bank until inverted, which is what actually happened here. I will see if I can unearth the AAIB Report, to provide a reference.
.edit...
Well I've looked and looked but can't find the proof I am looking for, but did find this interesting presentation on Vmca, and how it is at a minimum at 5 degrees into the good engine.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Wbu6X0hSnBY
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Last edited by scifi; 3rd Oct 2019 at 17:47.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 00:58
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If your speed is adequate it doesn’t matter.
Exactly.

Now here is my question, an engine out ( inboard at that) should be a complete non-event on a 4-engine aircraft.
It will be a very big deal indeed if the prop fails to feather....
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 13:40
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However the NTSB video showing their investigation video appears to show the engine embedded in the side of the hangar is feathered.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 14:32
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The B17 Crash

It was not climbing. All engine issues? Contaminated fuel ? Trying to save the aircraft by returning to the departure airport?

More info needed.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 15:37
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From looking at the recent NTSB videos, it appears that they got it back to the threshold of RW06 correctly lined up. However they knocked some ( 30?) approach lights over, and then swerved to the right whilst taxiing at high speed along the ground.
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Old 5th Oct 2019, 23:32
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Search Youtube Bob Hoover and his Shrike Commander display. Hesitation rolls towards the dead engine - with speed in hand.
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 07:29
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
Now here is my question, an engine out ( inboard at that) should be a complete non-event on a 4-engine aircraft.
I understood it was the No.4 engine, outboard, not inboard. Not that that in itself should have brought the aircraft down.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 20:56
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On a multi-engined aeroplane if any engine fails the the a/c will roll to the dead engine side. The natural response is to roll level again, telling you which side the 'dud' engine is on. Sort yourself out and then decide what you can do or want to do. 'Simples' as the tv add says. Learnt this lesson from a Boeing Test Pilot on a LHR - Sea flight when on 747s many years ago.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 12:42
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Roll will be more pronounced on a swept-wing type. With a straight wing as on a B-17, yaw will be more pronounced and will serve as a better indicator for identifying the failed engine.
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