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Fatal Accident Switzerland

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Fatal Accident Switzerland

Old 27th Aug 2019, 16:54
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Fatal Accident Switzerland

Very sad family accident including baby.

https://twnews.co.uk/gb-news/famous-...rash-with-baby

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/228502

Last edited by Repos; 27th Aug 2019 at 16:58. Reason: add extra link
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 00:03
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Horrible, seems like a late attempt to climb a bit. Surely 6,000 feet is not the ceiling of an Arrow with 2 adults and a child on board?

EDIT https://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/bl...d15482646.html some footage here of the crash site. In the report a witness speaks of two fire "streaks" prior to an explosion, possibly misfiring engine prior to the crash? The weather seems CAVOK at least during the footage. The crash site seems well below any ridge and the tracking data show no substantial loss of altitude prior to the crash

Last edited by vanHorck; 28th Aug 2019 at 01:12.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 01:02
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May have hit a down draught from a wind coming over the pass. The normal way I believe to cross a pass is at 45 degrees rather than head on so a turn can be made away if the down draught threatens to blow you into the ground.

Very sad event so much lost in hopes, dreams and talent.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 02:35
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Alps composer plane crash

With the BBC reporting today, Jonathan Goldstein and his family were involved in a fatal plane crash in the Alps yesterday. A very unfortunate piece of news, as this was one of the most energetic classical composers I have witnessed in recent times. So far very little information is available as to the crash. Any information and opinion as to possible weather effects forcing the small plane down would be appreciated. Most sincere wishes to the family.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 13:48
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Originally Posted by horizon flyer View Post
May have hit a down draught from a wind coming over the pass. The normal way I believe to cross a pass is at 45 degrees rather than head on so a turn can be made away if the down draught threatens to blow you into the ground.

Very sad event so much lost in hopes, dreams and talent.
Indeed, a very sad incident, moreso with a young child involved.

Is it possible to get downdrafts that strong? I have been caught in a variety at various locations across Europe but the most height I have lost is a few hundred feet before getting back into level or climbing flight. An arrow isnt an underpowered small plane either. Weather looks VMC from the press images; I was initially thinking CFIT due to IMC or loss of control in IMC, but then I do not know the pilots qualifications or experience.
Either way a sad report and hopefully more information will come to light on the series of events that took place that day.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 19:01
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Is there any warning or prediction system that can be mounted to smaller planes that can detect initial windshear/downdraft events and allow a larger margin for any escape maneuvers?
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 20:02
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I did fly on that day in Valais (although not exactly in that area) and the conditions were perfect. I would be very surprised if it was due to a downdraft.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 20:42
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Originally Posted by horizon flyer View Post
May have hit a down draught from a wind coming over the pass. The normal way I believe to cross a pass is at 45 degrees rather than head on so a turn can be made away if the down draught threatens to blow you into the ground.
The flight profile in the link in the first post shows no substantial descent prior to the crash. There was 100ft drop but the pilot recovered from it
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 11:40
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Thanks atakacs. .
Looks like he was following a VFR route S44. Anyone flown it?
Anyone any idea of the actual weather conditions IN the mountains? Any archive sites?

Asking as I know the family so NO theorizing or speculation please. Solid info or actual experience only.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 16:21
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Spar Failures
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 09:44
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Whatever happened was very catastrophic and quick.

Not CFIT. IMHO.

Last edited by Dan_Brown; 30th Aug 2019 at 11:40.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 11:08
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Any cables in that area?
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 11:40
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Speculation

Dan Brown.
Family are reading this. I asked for informed knowledge and information. Either add something factual or shut up. Jet blast seems to your usual arena. I suggest you stay there.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 11:49
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I also know people who have been killed in air accidents in my 40 years of aviation. We all know the risks. If we dont like the risks, stay on the ground. If we don't like what we read dont read it. If the mods dont like then they can intervene.

i am sorry for your loss but please dont dictate to me.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 14:02
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Originally Posted by Nubboy View Post
Dan Brown.
Family are reading this. I asked for informed knowledge and information. Either add something factual or shut up. Jet blast seems to your usual arena. I suggest you stay there.
Itís a very sad incident , but this is a rumour site. Therefore you will get peopleís interpretations.

the only factual info will come from the accident report.

You are not a moderator , so I suggest you do one.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 14:08
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown View Post
I also know people who have been killed in air accidents in my 40 years of aviation. We all know the risks. If we dont like the risks, stay on the ground. If we don't like what we read dont read it. If the mods dont like then they can intervene.

i am sorry for your loss but please dont dictate to me.
Well said Dan Brown,BTW Nubboy The Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe).Rumour :an interesting story or piece of news that may or may not be true, that spreads
quickly from person to person.Here is the link your looking for
https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...igation-branch
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 20:30
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Originally Posted by patagonia1 View Post
Indeed, a very sad incident, moreso with a young child involved.

Is it possible to get downdrafts that strong? I have been caught in a variety at various locations across Europe but the most height I have lost is a few hundred feet before getting back into level or climbing flight. An arrow isnt an underpowered small plane either. Weather looks VMC from the press images; I was initially thinking CFIT due to IMC or loss of control in IMC, but then I do not know the pilots qualifications or experience.
Either way a sad report and hopefully more information will come to light on the series of events that took place that day.
Without making any comment with regard to this sad accident - since I have no information about the local weather conditions at the time -

Yes it is entirely possible in principle (and practice) to get downdrafts strong enough to overwhelm the climb capability of even a powerful aircraft in mountainous terrain like the Alps. (Not strictly relevant here perhaps but even large jet airliners have had to make major course changes to get out of mountain sink conditions.) Depending on the weather - and especially in certain wind directions very strong up and down drafts may occur. If wave conditions occur, the turbulence at low level can be severe and the areas of strong sink may not necessarily be simply where 'normal ' hill flying assumptions would put them. As was said earlier, this is why approach to ridge line and valley divides is best done at an angle, to allow rapid change of direction if everything goes pear shaped. Look at the cloud patterns as well as the ground profile.

In Britain we do not have mountains of the impressive extent & challenge of the Alps so we do not have mountain flying ratings of the type recommended or required in some Alpine countries. Even so, some of our hills and mountains can produce conditions at or beyond the limits for light aircraft at times - ask any mountain wave tug pilot!
Because it is rare to find this in the UK, it is possibly not something that would be in the forefront of a pilot's mind, on a bonny looking day with, as you say, apparently pleasant VFR conditions.
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 12:20
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Don't quote me but the tracking image on the wikibase page seems to show the impact being on the downhill (eastern) side of the ridge - ie. after they'd flown over the ridge.
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 18:27
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The wreckages also seems to be on the windward side of the ridge. No clouds either. Doesn't add up. It is usually smooth on the windward side of the mountain and the turbulence starts on the leeward side. At least that's what I experienced when I attempted to fly across a 6000 ft ridgeline.
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 18:50
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown View Post
I also know people who have been killed in air accidents in my 40 years of aviation. We all know the risks. If we dont like the risks, stay on the ground. If we don't like what we read dont read it. If the mods dont like then they can intervene.

i am sorry for your loss but please dont dictate to me.
Dan, it seems you're not understanding the situation.

If someone comes on the forum to ask a question, and they very clearly dictate what information they want - and more importantly, DON'T want - then the thread from that point onwards can only accommodate posts which conform to those exact criteria. If in addition, the inquisitor claims to know the family of the subject, they hold the moral high-ground. This gives them full entitlement to slap down any deviations from the prescribed script, in any way they deem appropriate, allowing them to be as rude, patronising and insulting as they feel is suitable to convey their ire at your impertinence.
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