Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Light aircraft crash near Abergavenny

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Light aircraft crash near Abergavenny

Old 14th May 2019, 15:31
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,787
Received 196 Likes on 90 Posts
Originally Posted by c5000052
I suppose take off distance on grass with sr22 is close to limits at this airfield.
Cirrus quotes 330 m TOR for the SR22. GE suggests that the strip is around 600 m.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 14th May 2019, 15:53
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I was meaning distance to reach 50 feet on grass. Anyway, we may know from the pilot at some stage. Would be useful lesson for all of us.
c5000052 is offline  
Old 14th May 2019, 19:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Daily Mail report of the rescue with photos:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...road-halt.html
PastTense is offline  
Old 14th May 2019, 21:37
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
the additional dangers posed by the ballistic parachute system.
Can you expand on this?
Are you referring to the explosive charge? I can see that this is relevent but I have never seen this specific hazard detailed before.
funfly is offline  
Old 14th May 2019, 22:18
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Outer Hebrides
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ARFF Considerations Working Around Ballistic Recovery Parachutes | ARFF Resource

I'm not too skilled in adding attachments but a suitable Google search will no doubt point you in the right direction.

And this is aimed at professionals, not innocent bystanders....
GiveMeABreak is offline  
Old 14th May 2019, 23:20
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So obvious when you think about it, but to non GA bystanders I suggest a real danger.
Must admit it would not (until-now) have been uppermost in my mind seeing a GA aircraft down.
It would be now.
There will have to be a general awareness of the possibility of high explosives in the roof of a ‘downed’ GAAircraft.
funfly is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 00:16
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Alles Über
Posts: 374
Received 42 Likes on 17 Posts
Originally Posted by funfly
So obvious when you think about it, but to non GA bystanders I suggest a real danger.
Must admit it would not (until-now) have been uppermost in my mind seeing a GA aircraft down.
It would be now.
There will have to be a general awareness of the possibility of high explosives in the roof of a ‘downed’ GAAircraft.

If you’re keen to drag pax out of an upside down cab that’s probably full of fuel then I think the solid fuel ballistic parachute probably comes in at the PXR phase (Debrief) of the incident.
trim it out is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 10:07
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you’re keen to drag pax out of an upside down cab that’s probably full of fuel then I think the solid fuel ballistic parachute probably comes in at the PXR phase (Debrief) of the incident.
But many GA aircraft that are accidentally on the ground where other people might be in a position to assist pilot and passengers, might not be on fire but there is still a risk from an explosive device in the roof (as in the article you quoted). Do aircraft fitted with BRS always have a warning that will be visible to potential assistants?
funfly is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 12:48
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 1,576
Received 123 Likes on 60 Posts
A solid fuel rocket is not an explosive, let alone a high explosive.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 13:04
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Surrey, UK ;
Age: 71
Posts: 1,153
Received 8 Likes on 8 Posts
Three days in nobody has been blamed or maligned yet .. PPRuNe losing the plot ?

OK genuine question .. What actually happened to put the aeroplane from a runway that looks to be parallel to the A40 (on whichever side) onto the road ? was it taking off or landing ? undershoot or overshoot ? engine failure ? Thought all these things would have been debated by now
Dave Gittins is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 14:36
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: NE Surrey, UK
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well the Daily Mail says here (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...road-halt.html ) that it hit some "overhead train lines". I'm sure those weren't shown on the charts so that's got to be reason enough for the crash, has it not?!
Seloco is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 18:27
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Peterborough
Age: 69
Posts: 258
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Typical DM, they should have checked and they would have known that the railway line does not have overhead electrical lines.
uffington sb is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 22:24
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,578
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
The power line that was hit is a typical 3 phase line feeding farm builduings. It crosses the runway centreline, A40 and railway at 90 degrees one field (150 metres) beyond the 33 threshold. Poles are about 25 ft high. The line is clearly marked on OS maps.
Whopity is offline  
Old 16th May 2019, 06:33
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The hazard posed to people by the pyrotechnics in the ballistic parachute cooking off in a fire are interesting , during the Vietnam war there was a huge fire on the USS Forristal, an aircraft carrier, while the reason for the fire was the initiation of a rocket by an EMP but the consequences of having old WW2 bombs on the deck ( used for financal reasons ) made things far worse as these cooked off quickly when exposed to fire giving the fire crew very little time to react, modern ordinance is much more resistant to fire and gives fire crews time to put out the fire and cool the area.

I would be very interested to know the fire resistant standards applied to the ballistic parachute pyrotechnic.

Last edited by A and C; 16th May 2019 at 06:35. Reason: Spelling.
A and C is offline  
Old 16th May 2019, 07:20
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,787
Received 196 Likes on 90 Posts
Originally Posted by Whopity
The power line that was hit is a typical 3 phase line feeding farm builduings. It crosses the runway centreline, A40 and railway at 90 degrees one field (150 metres) beyond the 33 threshold. Poles are about 25 ft high. The line is clearly marked on OS maps.
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 16th May 2019, 09:39
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's clearly marked on the 1:50k, but not on the 1:25k at least not on the online Streetmap version. They are also on some aeronautical charts - I don't have one to hand, suspect it's the 1:250k not the 1:500k. Could well be wrong about that though!.

Streetmap.co.uk - Map of 331674,210680
cats_five is offline  
Old 16th May 2019, 11:59
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 568
Received 66 Likes on 18 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Gittins
OK genuine question .. What actually happened to put the aeroplane from a runway that looks to be parallel to the A40 (on whichever side) onto the road ? was it taking off or landing ? undershoot or overshoot ? engine failure ? Thought all these things would have been debated by now
After just the briefest read of this very short thread, you'd notice that Seloco had already taken the trouble to post this....
A later BBC report (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48251547) shows that the Cirrus had previously landed at the private strip alongside the A40 to pick up two pax. It had just taken off when the accident happened.
pilotmike is offline  
Old 16th May 2019, 12:24
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Surrey, UK ;
Age: 71
Posts: 1,153
Received 8 Likes on 8 Posts
and in his earlier post he said it was trying to land .. and there seems to be some mix up about a railway track with overhead lines, apparently brought down and run over by a train.

My point is it seems hardly crystal clear what happened and I'd have expected some speculation as to why.

Surprisingly I'd have expected an email from AAIB saying they had dispatched a team but nothing from them, nothing on their website either.
Dave Gittins is offline  
Old 16th May 2019, 14:30
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 1,576
Received 123 Likes on 60 Posts
From the position of the accident site it looks as if the take off was from 15. The runway is reported to have a significant "hump" which would substantially affect t/o run. Additionally the wind in the area at the time appears to have been predominantly northerly 5-7kts but it is impossible to be certain due to local effects, valley etc. However that seems likely.

So, take off downwind on grass, fairly heavy and with an up-gradient on at least part of it? Plus the terrain is rising gently in that direction. Of course we don't know the fuel state but with three adults on board it's likely to have been well towards the higher end.
I'd foresee difficulties heading off under those (speculative) conditions.
The telling thing of course is the distance to clear a 50ft obstacle which is what a 30ft pole with a 20ft terrain rise over that distance might well be...

I've looked at the performance tables and made a few assumptions about TOW etc and the numbers come out remarkably close to 50ft right about where those wires are.

A bit rough and ready I know but might be an explanation.

Last edited by meleagertoo; 16th May 2019 at 15:37.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 16th May 2019, 15:34
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Location: Location!
Posts: 2,295
Received 33 Likes on 25 Posts
The attached may be helpful in order to provide a fuller picture of what is involved:

Jack
Union Jack is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.