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AA A321 takes off after smashing ground sign

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AA A321 takes off after smashing ground sign

Old 18th Apr 2019, 13:53
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
What's more pathetic are some Americans pilots in various sites and FB group blaming the aircraft. It's either the foreign aircraft or foreign pilots' fault.

Let them believe they're God's gift to aviation...
Banana: Just to note, "aircraft malfunction" can be due to some design fault, some structural or software failure, or perhaps shoddy maintenance. Calling the problem that is not tantamount to blaming Airbus. Indeed, the famous AA DC-10 crash out of ORD was not really due to any McDonnell Douglas fault, but improper technique used by AA engineers to replace the port engine. So cool your presumptive jets and wait for the investigation.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 14:36
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Wow. You can actually see the distance remaining marker wrapped around the wing.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 14:50
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USA am TV news says wing tip scraped ground and a runway light is imbedded in the wing.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 14:54
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Why are those distance remaining signs there in the first place? Certainly not because of an ICAO directive.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 15:21
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Why are those distance remaining signs there in the first place? Certainly not because of an ICAO directive.
FAA Standards for Airport Sign Systems

Chapter 2.

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Old 18th Apr 2019, 15:33
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Originally Posted by dogsridewith View Post
USA am TV news says wing tip scraped ground and a runway light is imbedded in the wing.
Might be better to believe what JFK and the NTSB say.

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Old 18th Apr 2019, 15:52
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Originally Posted by SeenItAll View Post
Banana: Just to note, "aircraft malfunction" can be due to some design fault, some structural or software failure, or perhaps shoddy maintenance. Calling the problem that is not tantamount to blaming Airbus. Indeed, the famous AA DC-10 crash out of ORD was not really due to any McDonnell Douglas fault, but improper technique used by AA engineers to replace the port engine. So cool your presumptive jets and wait for the investigation.
Might as well be. As far as I know Airbus had to change put in place some changes more than once after some events. Like the LH overran in Warsaw and the LH wing strike in Hamburg.

My point was that also with the Atlas Air there have been assumptions about the FO's ability without waiting for the preliminary report, because allegedly he was pushed by the HR dept thanks to his race. Many said he was also fired by TWA in the 90's. I call that, with all due respect, BS.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 16:07
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
Many said he was also fired by TWA in the 90's. I call that, with all due respect, BS.
Who are these 'many'? Can you provide a reference?

aterpster had the Atlas FO confused with the captain in the UPS 1354 crash and subsequently posted a correction:

Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
The F/O previously worked for TWA. As I understand it he left there in 1990.
Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
Then, I must have been given bad information. Do you know his age on the date of the accident?

EDIT: The person who had been let go by TWA was the captain of UPS 1354. Sorry for the confusion.



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Old 18th Apr 2019, 16:16
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On US centric forums.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 16:43
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What was the cause of the BA Airbus out of Gibraltar doing the " wing walk"?
Some months ago I was landing a 319 and it started doing that over the numbers. Wind was not a factor and I'm pretty sure I didn't start it. Almost went around before it settled down. Wondering if experienced Airbus pilots can chime in if they have had similar experiences. Kinda hard for me to believe, not knowing all the facts, that the JFK incident could have been pilot induced.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 17:01
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From 19 years of personal experience as a captain on the A320, I can confidently state that 90%+ of the pilots I fly with don't put any crosswind correction in for the takeoff roll. On rotation with a strong crosswind, there is usually a rudder wag and quick correction as the nose comes up and the plane tries to simultaneoulsy roll away from the wind and weathervane into the wind. This fits what we know so far.

My inital instructor at Airbus told us to not use crosswind aileron inputs because the computers would take care of it and you didn't want to get spoiler extension. This was proved patently incorrect and it's now clearly spelled out in the FCOM. I had a new FO right out of IOE that could not land the plane. Upon discussing his difficulties, he said he was taught (at Airbus Miami) to never use cross-controls for landing. With some new knowlege and coaching, he was easily able to handle crosswinds. Again, I suspect there is some old, bad tribal knowledge still out there.

I'd place a bet on this being a factor.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 17:28
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NTSB has classified this as an accident. I understand they dispatched a Go Team of 6 to JFK.

We'll find out a lot in due course.

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Old 18th Apr 2019, 18:13
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Looking at quite a few of the recent events where aircraft are banking hard on DEP, I believe we are seeing the effects of reduced spacing on DEP, especially with similar aircraft. Spacing is far too close between similar variants.

I recently experienced a severe event, in an A321 behind an A320. About 60 seconds behind the A320, we had just rotated, when a hard right, followed by a hard left bank at about 300 feet. Felt like a vertical roller coaster as well.

There have been several very similar events recently in the aviation news, with uncommanded bank at low altitudes, and I am just wondering if this reduced spacing is an issue.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 19:01
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
Looking at quite a few of the recent events where aircraft are banking hard on DEP, I believe we are seeing the effects of reduced spacing on DEP, especially with similar aircraft. Spacing is far too close between similar variants.

I recently experienced a severe event, in an A321 behind an A320. About 60 seconds behind the A320, we had just rotated, when a hard right, followed by a hard left bank at about 300 feet. Felt like a vertical roller coaster as well.

There have been several very similar events recently in the aviation news, with uncommanded bank at low altitudes, and I am just wondering if this reduced spacing is an issue.
JFK typically uses distance instead of time for determining the departure spacing. They get annoyed when someone gets cleared into position and they respond they need the full two minutes for wake turbulence.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 20:44
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The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways
I would look at takeoff data in the FMS. Emirates, Melbourne, I guess was the one.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 21:05
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My inital instructor at Airbus told us to not use crosswind aileron inputs because the computers would take care of it and you didn't want to get spoiler extension. This was proved patently incorrect and it's now clearly spelled out in the FCOM.
I think most are concerned about tailstrike..
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 22:05
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Originally Posted by Reluctant Bus Driver View Post
What was the cause of the BA Airbus out of Gibraltar doing the " wing walk"?
Some months ago I was landing a 319 and it started doing that over the numbers. Wind was not a factor and I'm pretty sure I didn't start it. Almost went around before it settled down. Wondering if experienced Airbus pilots can chime in if they have had similar experiences. Kinda hard for me to believe, not knowing all the facts, that the JFK incident could have been pilot induced.
Aviation Herald reports this from a passenger - whom they contacted and received documentation from that she was aboard.

"I was aboard this aircraft. The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways, I was in the window seat just behind the left wing. Then it felt like the pilot pulled the aircraft up manually. He continued to make very strong left and right banks while in the air before we circled back to JFK. He made an announcement that we had a major computer failure, but that he had control of the airplane and that we'll be making an emergency landing. I watched the metal flap (runway sign) above the windg the whole 43 mins we were in the air.
Accident: American A321 at New York on Apr 10th 2019, wingtip strike and collision with runway sign during departure

I'm agnostic as to 1) crosswind or 2) Airbus software glitch, combined perhaps with PIO in response or 3) wake turbulence or 4) something else. They have all occurred at one time or another, and it won't astound me if any particular one is identifed as the cause or a factor, eventually.
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Old 19th Apr 2019, 02:09
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Originally Posted by dogsridewith View Post
USA am TV news says wing tip scraped ground and a runway light is imbedded in the wing.
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Might be better to believe what JFK and the NTSB say.

From AV Herald article that was updated today:
"According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip.

In the afternoon the FAA reported: "AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 300 AIRBUS 321 STRUCK RUNWAY SIGN AND AIRPORT LIGHT". The FAA reported no injuries and unknown damage to the aircraft."

(So TV reported wrong component of airport stuck in the wing.)

Last edited by dogsridewith; 19th Apr 2019 at 02:27.
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Old 19th Apr 2019, 07:32
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Originally Posted by dogsridewith View Post
From AV Herald article that was updated today:
"According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip.
It will be interesting to see if the NTSB agrees with Avherald's (unattributed) report that "the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop".
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Old 19th Apr 2019, 08:17
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Originally Posted by AKAAB View Post
From 19 years of personal experience as a captain on the A320, I can confidently state that 90%+ of the pilots I fly with don't put any crosswind correction in for the takeoff roll. On rotation with a strong crosswind, there is usually a rudder wag and quick correction as the nose comes up and the plane tries to simultaneoulsy roll away from the wind and weathervane into the wind. This fits what we know so far.

My inital instructor at Airbus told us to not use crosswind aileron inputs because the computers would take care of it and you didn't want to get spoiler extension. This was proved patently incorrect and it's now clearly spelled out in the FCOM. I had a new FO right out of IOE that could not land the plane. Upon discussing his difficulties, he said he was taught (at Airbus Miami) to never use cross-controls for landing. With some new knowlege and coaching, he was easily able to handle crosswinds. Again, I suspect there is some old, bad tribal knowledge still out there.

I'd place a bet on this being a factor.
my current manual:
Pilot Flying | Takeoff Expanded (continued)
At VR:
ROTATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 THEN SRS
- At VR, initiate the rotation to achieve a continuous rotation with a
rate of about 3 per second, towards a pitch attitude of 15 (12.5 if
one engine is failed).
- Minimize the lateral inputs on the ground and during the rotation to
avoid spoiler extension.
- In strong crosswind conditions, small lateral stick inputs may be
used, if necessary, to aim at maintaining wings level.

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