One of Russia's richest women killedin private aircraft in Germany

[bsieker]

Originally Posted by anxiao

Noise abatement profiles have a lot to answer for in aircraft accidents.

Perhaps, but this isn't noise abatement. This is staying clear of Frankfurt/Main EDDF IFR traffic.

Bernd

[redsnail]

Used to fly there in the Hawker and we've now stopped doing the 08 approaches in the Challenger. The sim training was interesting to say the least. You really had to be at the right speed, right RoD, correct AoB or else it was a go-around. You needed to bring your A game to fly the 08 approach in a reasonable performance jet.
I can't speak for turboprops.

[ChickenHouse]

Originally Posted by bsieker

Bernd

I am sorry and apologize for not being clear enough.

I frequently fly to EDFE, very frequently, and am quite in knowledge of the exact situation there, IFR and VFR. I was flying there yesterday, followed the whole story from radar to info on the radio, as I was not far later behind the aircraft and had to wait in the air until the airfield opened again after the accident. I did fly directly over the wreckage field on approach to runway 08 while the police and rescue was still working down there. I did talk to the people at the airfield, so, yes, I was rather close to what happened. Sorry, in my humble opinion your text is the biggest bull**** I ever read after such an accident.

I am out of this discussion. Have a nice life.

[bsieker]

Originally Posted by ChickenHouse

I am sorry and apologize for not being clear enough.

I frequently fly to EDFE, very frequently, and am quite in knowledge of the exact situation there, IFR and VFR. I was flying there yesterday, followed the whole story from radar to info on the radio, as I was not far later behind the aircraft and had to wait in the air until the airfield opened again after the accident. I did fly directly over the wreckage field on approach to runway 08 while the police and rescue was still working down there. I did talk to the people at the airfield, so, yes, I was rather close to what happened. Sorry, in my humble opinion your text is the biggest bull**** I ever read after such an accident.

I am out of this discussion. Have a nice life.

Excuse me? Nothing of that has anything to do with what I wrote.

I posted the charts and marked the prescribed approach route and showed that final approach, when flown according to the charts, is a lot shorter than 0.8NM. So what exactly is BS about that?

I didn't say anything about what happened in this accident. But you just repeatedly told me that things I hadn't written were wrong. So?

So please, for all of us to learn, tell us what exactly is wrong with my text.

After all, if you don't share what you know, how are we supposed to learn and improve?

Kind regards,
Bernd

[LGW Vulture]

For those of you who don't know.....the deceased's husband owns Epic Aircraft.

He himself was the first pilot to break his machine...now his wife has been killed in one.

Rather damn unfortunate....hope the machine isn't to blame in any way. Chin up those of you in Bend.

[MartinAOA]

Originally Posted by His dudeness

Having flown privileged people for now almost 30 years, some are, most aren´t.

Most businessmen, businesswomen, some oligarchs and successful people in general are risk takers...

[Propsforever]

I have flown many times over the last 20yrs. into EDFE in Turboprop and Jet AC.

Its no real Problem in a Turboprop, " If you are on Top of the Game". I flew in C90-BE200-BE300-B350..., and it is perfectly managable "if you stick to the numbers" in a Jet.

But when i started flying Jet in my Company (Company demanded 500hrs COP, before Command) i saw some rather interesting Approaches into Rwy 09 ( Cpts scaring the **** out of me and i had been flying as CPT/TRI the last 20+ yrs.).
I usually had to talk them into rwy09, otherwise i got to see: to high- to fast - to late turn into final - to much bank- to late descend ... from Experienced FAR25 Cpts with almost no VFR Experience.

So i can imagine this Scenario quite easily and flying Single Pilot doesnt help there.

[punkalouver]

Originally Posted by bsieker

The whole runway is just 0.76 NM, and there is no displaced threshold for landing 08, so the whole runway is available. And if you extend the runway to the left by the same amount again (yellow bar, still less than 0.8 NM), you end up at the turn to crosswind for departing aircraft, the dashed line with the arrowhead at the bottom, which goes in southerly direction on the western side of the motorway.

If you mark the final (orange bar) for the arriving traffic, going on the eastern side of the motorway, and copy that mark to the scale at the bottom of the chart, you see that it is only 0.4 NM.





Yes, I know that the Epic didn't fly the red dotted path, and I didn't write that it had. How would I plot a path that nobody knows? I clearly wrote that the red dotted path is the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine aircraft. It is the path it should have flown:
Bernd

To ensure some clarity, this approach route is on the visual operations chart and is flown by piston engine aircraft under VFR. I have never flown a turbine aircraft at this airport and am unsure of what they or piston aircraft do under VFR or IFR procedures although I assume they follow the same riute when VFR. The reason for the close in base leg is due to airspace for Frankfurt international.

[atakacs]

Originally Posted by ChickenHouse

Sorry, in my humble opinion your text is the biggest bull**** I ever read after such an accident.

I am out of this discussion. Have a nice life.

I think you are a little short on specifics.

I don't claim to have any knowledge of the situation at hand but I certainly appreciated Bernd's input so far. In what respect is it so much off base?

[MarcK]

The prop was not turning at the time of the crash:

Prop not turning

[GordonR_Cape]

Originally Posted by MarcK

The prop was not turning at the time of the crash:

On first impressions perhaps. The eyewitness report in the other thread may offer a different explanation:

I thought (1) this cannot happen and (2) soon there will be a stall. Which happened immediately, the Epic dipped over the left wing, made half a roll downwards (so that I could see the entire bottom of the aircraft) and impacted vertically, immediately followed by an impact fire."

If the aircraft crashed inverted, it is quite possible that there was no immediate contact between the propeller and the ground, so I'm not sure that assumption is valid. IMO an uncommanded PT6 turbine shutdown seconds before landing seems extraordinarily unlikely.

[EDLB]

Originally Posted by GordonR_Cape

IMO an uncommanded PT6 turbine shutdown seconds before landing seems extraordinarily unlikely.

But it did not produce any power at the time of impact. Regardless in what position it hit the ground. Otherwise all blades would be bent.

[Vilters]

My first post was deleted.
But the stall, wing drop and pretty brutal flipover is typical of a highly loaded short cord wing just like the examples I gave in my first post. All of them do the exact same thing.

[ironbutt57]

Originally Posted by Vilters

My first post was deleted.
But the stall, wing drop and pretty brutal flipover is typical of a highly loaded short cord wing just like the examples I gave in my first post. All of them do the exact same thing.

any wing whose critical angle of attack is exceeded will stall..

[GordonR_Cape]

Originally Posted by EDLB

But it did not produce any power at the time of impact. Regardless in what position it hit the ground. Otherwise all blades would be bent.

My speculative suggestion was based on the concept that the aircraft may not have impacted nose first, given the eyewitness report of an inverted orientation.

The comment that I was responding to, and the other parts of the eyewitness statement, imply something different from each other:

The turbine was running, but either it was running rough or had just been throttled back, I could see no smoke or flames.

My limited understanding cannot make sense of this. Is there any suggestion that engine shutdown had anything to do with the crash, or is the photo of the propellor completely unrelated to the real issues?

[Meester proach]

Oh why oh why don’t high net worth individuals fly in more suitable aircraft ?like a twin turbine ? Challenger or gulfstream ?

[bsieker]

Originally Posted by Propsforever

[...] Rwy 09 [...]

Just a short clarification: Due to magnetic deviation drift, the runway was redesignated from 09/27 to 08/26 about 5 years ago. So Propsforever isn't mistaken when he talks about "09". It just means it was a few years ago. The basic approach procedures haven't changed a lot, though.

Bernd

[bsieker]

Originally Posted by MarcK

The prop was not turning at the time of the crash:

That is quite an astounding feat for a free-turbine engine such as the PT6A. Unbent prop blades can also mean that it didn't hit the ground with the propeller first. If it was fully stalled it could have impacted at almost any attitude. The BFU will quickly establish the running condition of the engine at impact.

Bernd

[Icarus2001]

Aviation savvy corporations do not place their top management in single engine non certified aircraft.

Something like putting a high net worth individual football player in a single engine aircraft with a PPL holder.

An aircraft is not an aircraft, yes, there are levels of safety.

A sad loss, condolences.

[ironbutt57]

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

Aviation savvy corporations do not place their top management in single engine non certified aircraft.

Something like putting a high net worth individual football player in a single engine aircraft with a PPL holder.

An aircraft is not an aircraft, yes, there are levels of safety.

A sad loss, condolences.

very true, guess since it is "their product" it was allowed..