Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
Certainly not. A relevant discussion and worth updating as things develop. This case may be the start of the authorities taking rule breaking more seriously and if not we need to know.
The non aviation public don't know all the ins and outs of commercial versus private flying and if this helps to inform then it is worth doing.
The non aviation public don't know all the ins and outs of commercial versus private flying and if this helps to inform then it is worth doing.
Where's the nearest brush and carpet ?
That’ll be because there’s real potential of jail time, heavy fines and multi million pound compensation claims against anyone living, who was part of the group who organised this flight.
"No-one, as far as I can see, is yet to admit to anything."
Understandable, as 'jumpseater' said. That said, given what is already public knowledge, it is hard to imagine how to avoid some at least of the outcomes jumpseater mentions.
To outsiders who know little of flying and how it is regulated and how it SHOULD operate, this whole mess reflects badly on all of us in the flying community, especially in smaller aeroplanes.
Individual responsibility is what is being examined in court, but I'd really like to see the CAA put some serious effort into overseeing and policing some of this rather better; it seems that much effort is put into the easy stuff, which is of little import but simple to deal with.(Understandable, admittedly!)
These potentially doubtful operations appear to get left alone, perhaps as too difficult to pin down. I'd also suggest that any aircraft, especially a light aircraft, kept in the UK long term, but still on the American register, needs more careful oversight. What are the underlying reasons, justifications for that? I'd expect the CAA to check on that, at least
Understandable, as 'jumpseater' said. That said, given what is already public knowledge, it is hard to imagine how to avoid some at least of the outcomes jumpseater mentions.
To outsiders who know little of flying and how it is regulated and how it SHOULD operate, this whole mess reflects badly on all of us in the flying community, especially in smaller aeroplanes.
Individual responsibility is what is being examined in court, but I'd really like to see the CAA put some serious effort into overseeing and policing some of this rather better; it seems that much effort is put into the easy stuff, which is of little import but simple to deal with.(Understandable, admittedly!)
These potentially doubtful operations appear to get left alone, perhaps as too difficult to pin down. I'd also suggest that any aircraft, especially a light aircraft, kept in the UK long term, but still on the American register, needs more careful oversight. What are the underlying reasons, justifications for that? I'd expect the CAA to check on that, at least
I'd really like to see the CAA put some serious effort into overseeing and policing some of this rather better; it seems that much effort is put into the easy stuff, which is of little import but simple to deal with.(Understandable, admittedly!)
These potentially doubtful operations appear to get left alone, perhaps as too difficult to pin down. I'd also suggest that any aircraft, especially a light aircraft, kept in the UK long term, but still on the American register, needs more careful oversight. What are the underlying reasons, justifications for that? I'd expect the CAA to check on that, at least
These potentially doubtful operations appear to get left alone, perhaps as too difficult to pin down. I'd also suggest that any aircraft, especially a light aircraft, kept in the UK long term, but still on the American register, needs more careful oversight. What are the underlying reasons, justifications for that? I'd expect the CAA to check on that, at least
Bearing in mind the potential for sub judice discussion here, Wales On Line’s reporter’s are picking out some very salient elements of the trial. Whichever way the jury goes, there’s going to be plenty of WTF? discussion material afterwards….
Read from the bottom upward.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929
Read from the bottom upward.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929
Not understandable, actually. It may be easy for an organisation (particularly, it always seems, a public one) to go for the "Low hanging fruit" in enforcement, to find documents signed in the wrong box and such like, and to turn blind eyes to what everyone else sees as obvious transgressions. But it shouldn't be.
The key point to this tragedy and the trial is it illustrates way the Civil Aviation Authority are not capable of controlling the aviation run under flags of convenience , aircraft trusts and lax CAA controls. The American aircraft register is akin to a shipping operator basing his vessels in Liberia.
UK airlines run under the G register while at the bottom end of private aircraft operations there is the Light Aircraft Association. In between there is general aviation where most operators adhere to the increased UK regulations which are above the US register. In most countries in the world there are limitations on how long a foreign registered aircraft can remain locally. In the case of the American N register many wholly owned and operated aircraft exist in the UK without the pilot, operating body or aircraft ever returning to the USA.
This loophole needs to be closed. Many of the horse racing fraternity have used the N register for decades exploiting hour builders who will fly what should be regulated public transport operations on little more than a private pilots licence.
This of course is what we are seeing in the Sala case. When he boarded that Malibu in Nantes he was unaware the pilot only had a PPL and the aircraft was not operating under commercial regulations. There were plenty of legitimate UK air transport companies who could have moved him safely and without risk. However they have to charge more as they stick to the rules and employ qualified pilots. Sadly as we are seeing when things go wrong everyone passes the buck.
My view on all this is if you cannot afford to operate and fly your UK based aircraft on the British register then perhaps you should consider if it is a time to downsize.There is also the issue of UK insurance companies covering these out of country operations.
I have already made my views known to my MP in Norfolk and I sincerely hope the N reg loopholes can be closed.
UK airlines run under the G register while at the bottom end of private aircraft operations there is the Light Aircraft Association. In between there is general aviation where most operators adhere to the increased UK regulations which are above the US register. In most countries in the world there are limitations on how long a foreign registered aircraft can remain locally. In the case of the American N register many wholly owned and operated aircraft exist in the UK without the pilot, operating body or aircraft ever returning to the USA.
This loophole needs to be closed. Many of the horse racing fraternity have used the N register for decades exploiting hour builders who will fly what should be regulated public transport operations on little more than a private pilots licence.
This of course is what we are seeing in the Sala case. When he boarded that Malibu in Nantes he was unaware the pilot only had a PPL and the aircraft was not operating under commercial regulations. There were plenty of legitimate UK air transport companies who could have moved him safely and without risk. However they have to charge more as they stick to the rules and employ qualified pilots. Sadly as we are seeing when things go wrong everyone passes the buck.
My view on all this is if you cannot afford to operate and fly your UK based aircraft on the British register then perhaps you should consider if it is a time to downsize.There is also the issue of UK insurance companies covering these out of country operations.
I have already made my views known to my MP in Norfolk and I sincerely hope the N reg loopholes can be closed.
It remains to be seen I presume what the insurers make of this case. I can't believe they were operating within the terms of their insurance policy. The same goes for any "asset insurance" the football clubs might have on a player.
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This of course is what we are seeing in the Sala case. When he boarded that Malibu in Nantes he was unaware the pilot only had a PPL and the aircraft was not operating under commercial regulations.
No doubt in this case the deceased pilot was wearing four bars but a Malibu is still a single engine aircraft whereas very few commercial operations are run with only one avgas power plant. How was Sala expected to know this? People tend to take things on trust.
Had I been in Ibbotson's position I would have informed Sala I was departing lunchtime to pick up fuel in the Channel Islands and landed back at Cardiff before nightfall. Personally I have flown that route many times with my family thirty years ago but usually night stopped in Guernsey or Jersey. I have also flown it at night in a single engine aircraft decades ago, with a valid night rating, decades ago but would never take such a risk now.
Of course the decision is easy when you own the aircraft and are not pushed for time.
Working as a paid pilot is different as you are little more than a chauffeur and unlikely to upset the client.
An example of this mentality here. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-35292292
The crew and client died because they were forced to take of when most of us would have left it until another day.
This case will have long reaching repercussions for GA. The insurance issues will no doubt run to millions and substantial litigation. I would not want to be party to these unless protected by a limited company.
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 24th Oct 2021 at 17:28.
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Yes Mike, but whilst I agree entirely with all you say about the legality of the flight: the state of registration of the aircraft has no bearing whatever on what went wrong.
There are hundreds of UK based N reg aircraft operating quite safely and legally, equally I am quite sure that a good share of the illegal grey charter market is flown in G reg aircraft.
It’s the activity that needs to be stopped and you won’t stop it by forcing pilots to re-register all N reg aircraft.
There are hundreds of UK based N reg aircraft operating quite safely and legally, equally I am quite sure that a good share of the illegal grey charter market is flown in G reg aircraft.
It’s the activity that needs to be stopped and you won’t stop it by forcing pilots to re-register all N reg aircraft.
Bearing in mind the potential for sub judice discussion here, Wales On Line’s reporter’s are picking out some very salient elements of the trial. Whichever way the jury goes, there’s going to be plenty of WTF? discussion material afterwards….
Read from the bottom upward.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929
Read from the bottom upward.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929
The 'route to verdict'
Mr Justice Foxton reads out from a document provided to the jury called the route to verdict.The document states:
1.
- Are you sure the flights did not have the required authorisation or permission
- Are you sure the pilot David Ibbotson did not have a commercial pilots licence
- Are you sure David Ibbotson’s rating to fly N264DB expired in November 2018
- Are you sure bad weather was forecast and David Ibbotson was not confident to fly in such weather
2.
- Are you sure that the relevant matters individually or in combination gave rise to a real risk to N264DB which could not be safely ignored.
- If you are not sure of these matters you should find the defendant not guilty.
3.
- Are you sure that in organising the flights in circumstances which there was a real risk to the safety of N264DB which could not be safely ignored, firstly that the defendant was aware of that risk. If sure, you should find the defendant guilty. If you are not sure, you should move to part two.
- If you are sure he failed to show such care or skill that a person in that situation should exercise, you should find the defendant guilty.
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I agree. Thanks for posting jumpseater.
This court case though is not about the cause of the crash, which seems to be some mechanical issue that led to carbon monoxide poisoning. But for that, the flight would likely have been successful, there would be no court case and we would not be here discussing it.
This court case though is not about the cause of the crash, which seems to be some mechanical issue that led to carbon monoxide poisoning. But for that, the flight would likely have been successful, there would be no court case and we would not be here discussing it.
Based on what we know from the court reports of the pilots qualifications and ‘currency’ I have my doubts as to whether there would have been a happy ending at Cardiff. If the decision making process/mindset was flawed enough to depart, would it have altered if faced with a divert requirement with the forecast weather and having to make an instrument approach in it.
The South and West weather that night was pretty poor across the board so a ‘clear’ airport may not have been available. I can’t recall from the aaib report the ‘known’ fuel on board and what divert alternates that may have allowed.
The South and West weather that night was pretty poor across the board so a ‘clear’ airport may not have been available. I can’t recall from the aaib report the ‘known’ fuel on board and what divert alternates that may have allowed.
TAF and METAR for Cardiff and Jersey were:
EGFF 211644Z 2116/2212 22012KT 9999 SCT035 TEMPO 2116/2120 7000 -RA TEMPO
2120/2124 23016G26KT 6000 RA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO 2120/2124 27020G30KT 4000 RA
BKN006 BECMG 2121/2124 28012KT TEMPO 2208/2212 6000 SHRA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO
2208/2210 3000 SHRA SHRASN BKN008 PROB30 TEMPO 2210/2212 SHRA TSGS BKN008
EGFF 211820Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 -RA BKN021 OVC034 07/05 Q1014
EGFF 211850Z AUTO 23012KT 9999 -RA BKN020 BKN026 OVC045 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211920Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 BKN033 BKN044 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211950Z AUTO 22013KT 9999 BKN033 07/05 Q1012
EGFF 212020Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 SCT026 BKN034 07/05 Q1011
EGFF 212050Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 BKN023/// BKN039/// //////TCU 07/05 Q1010
EGFF 212120Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 -RA SCT024 BKN033 BKN040 07/05 Q1009
EGFF 212150Z AUTO 21012KT 6000 -RA BKN020/// OVC026/// //////TCU 07/06 Q1008
EGJJ 211707Z 2118/2203 20010KT 9999 FEW015 BKN030 TEMPO 2118/2124 -RA BKN015
PROB30 TEMPO 2118/2121 7000 SHRA BKN012 BECMG 2121/2123 22020KT BECMG 2202/2203
31017KT NSW SCT015
EGJJ 211820Z 22010KT 9999 SCT014 SCT025 BKN040 06/04 Q1019
EGJJ 211850Z 22011KT 9999 FEW018 SCT021 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211920Z 22011KT 9999 FEW016 SCT018 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211950Z 22012KT 9999 FEW018 SCT020 06/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212020Z 22013KT 9999 R26/1400 SCT014 07/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212050Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1200 R26/1200 BR SCT014/// SCT018/// BKN033///
07/05 Q1016
EGJJ 212120Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1400 FEW013/// OVC028/// 07/05 Q1016 RERA
EGJJ 212150Z AUTO 21015KT 9999 1400 FEW014/// SCT017/// BKN032/// 07/05 Q1015
RERA
EGFF 211644Z 2116/2212 22012KT 9999 SCT035 TEMPO 2116/2120 7000 -RA TEMPO
2120/2124 23016G26KT 6000 RA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO 2120/2124 27020G30KT 4000 RA
BKN006 BECMG 2121/2124 28012KT TEMPO 2208/2212 6000 SHRA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO
2208/2210 3000 SHRA SHRASN BKN008 PROB30 TEMPO 2210/2212 SHRA TSGS BKN008
EGFF 211820Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 -RA BKN021 OVC034 07/05 Q1014
EGFF 211850Z AUTO 23012KT 9999 -RA BKN020 BKN026 OVC045 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211920Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 BKN033 BKN044 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211950Z AUTO 22013KT 9999 BKN033 07/05 Q1012
EGFF 212020Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 SCT026 BKN034 07/05 Q1011
EGFF 212050Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 BKN023/// BKN039/// //////TCU 07/05 Q1010
EGFF 212120Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 -RA SCT024 BKN033 BKN040 07/05 Q1009
EGFF 212150Z AUTO 21012KT 6000 -RA BKN020/// OVC026/// //////TCU 07/06 Q1008
EGJJ 211707Z 2118/2203 20010KT 9999 FEW015 BKN030 TEMPO 2118/2124 -RA BKN015
PROB30 TEMPO 2118/2121 7000 SHRA BKN012 BECMG 2121/2123 22020KT BECMG 2202/2203
31017KT NSW SCT015
EGJJ 211820Z 22010KT 9999 SCT014 SCT025 BKN040 06/04 Q1019
EGJJ 211850Z 22011KT 9999 FEW018 SCT021 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211920Z 22011KT 9999 FEW016 SCT018 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211950Z 22012KT 9999 FEW018 SCT020 06/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212020Z 22013KT 9999 R26/1400 SCT014 07/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212050Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1200 R26/1200 BR SCT014/// SCT018/// BKN033///
07/05 Q1016
EGJJ 212120Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1400 FEW013/// OVC028/// 07/05 Q1016 RERA
EGJJ 212150Z AUTO 21015KT 9999 1400 FEW014/// SCT017/// BKN032/// 07/05 Q1015
RERA
Yes Mike, but whilst I agree entirely with all you say about the legality of the flight: the state of registration of the aircraft has no bearing whatever on what went wrong.
There are hundreds of UK based N reg aircraft operating quite safely and legally, equally I am quite sure that a good share of the illegal grey charter market is flown in G reg aircraft.
It’s the activity that needs to be stopped and you won’t stop it by forcing pilots to re-register all N reg aircraft.
There are hundreds of UK based N reg aircraft operating quite safely and legally, equally I am quite sure that a good share of the illegal grey charter market is flown in G reg aircraft.
It’s the activity that needs to be stopped and you won’t stop it by forcing pilots to re-register all N reg aircraft.
I have a friend who has over 9000 hours and has been an instructor in Vancouver for many years. However at the age of 67 and wanting to return to the UK where he was born and work part time as a flying instructor he finds the financial barrier of around £8k to get an instructor rating not worth the return.
So he finds it more rewarding to fly back to Canada for a couple of months and instruct on floats and wheels while we lose his skills .
Who on earth would spend £8k for an instructor rating in the UK when the return on capital is abysmal?
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I agree: but it’s still not a reason to force hundreds of safe, competent and legal aircraft owners to jump through hoops far more expensive than that to move from the N to the G register.
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When we are allowed to have the post match punditry, apologies for the analogy, we might discuss the questions that weren't asked as well as the ones that were asked.
At the moment I am puzzled as to why the judge wants the jury to consider whether Ibbotson was a 'confident' pilot rather than whether he was a competent one?
At the moment I am puzzled as to why the judge wants the jury to consider whether Ibbotson was a 'confident' pilot rather than whether he was a competent one?
I’m confident I can drive my car in snow and ice, I’ve no formal training in it, and very rarely done it.