Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
It seems that, in many areas not just aviation, rules are there for those who choose to follow them and are no longer enforced. This can only end in the break-down of civilisation when the vast majority of rule followers finally decide "sod it, I'll just do as I like", whether that is taxing their car, not shoplifting or something much more serious.
The regulatory organisations seem to assume that everyone will do as they are told. They tell us that they have no money to enforce, yet enforcement could bring lots of revenue in the form of fines and penalties (if the money was correctly allocated by government).
Many of us law-abiding citizens are outraged, but nobody cares about us, so the decline in standards will continue until we reach a tipping point and it might be too late then to drag it back.
Aviation has been getting safer and safer due to the strong regulation, but we see it being relaxed and Boeings are no longer built to a proper standard because of self-regulation and cases like this are the tip of the iceberg. Who or how may have to die for the tide to turn?
The regulatory organisations seem to assume that everyone will do as they are told. They tell us that they have no money to enforce, yet enforcement could bring lots of revenue in the form of fines and penalties (if the money was correctly allocated by government).
Many of us law-abiding citizens are outraged, but nobody cares about us, so the decline in standards will continue until we reach a tipping point and it might be too late then to drag it back.
Aviation has been getting safer and safer due to the strong regulation, but we see it being relaxed and Boeings are no longer built to a proper standard because of self-regulation and cases like this are the tip of the iceberg. Who or how may have to die for the tide to turn?
Perhaps the focus of the AAIB report is naturally more upon the causal factors rather than the contributing ones?
What is almost laughable able if it weren’t so serious is the outrage from guys like SND after the fact.
The guy who he would engage with in this type of event for helicopters at the CAA would be only too pleased to get his teeth stuck into someone who was operating illegally - so that he hasn’t means a lack of evidence or lack of shouting / informing from those suggesting its widespread....
What is almost laughable able if it weren’t so serious is the outrage from guys like SND after the fact.
The guy who he would engage with in this type of event for helicopters at the CAA would be only too pleased to get his teeth stuck into someone who was operating illegally - so that he hasn’t means a lack of evidence or lack of shouting / informing from those suggesting its widespread....
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The guy who he would engage with in this type of event for helicopters at the CAA would be only too pleased to get his teeth stuck into someone who was operating illegally - so that he hasn’t means a lack of evidence or lack of shouting / informing from those suggesting its widespread....
SND takes one view; another large AOC owner has been bold enough to voice that he might just ditch his certification and go grey market, on the grounds that he’ll never be prosecuted, and if he were, the fines would be a fraction of what he pays in fees and the costs of ‘compliance’.
Try calling ACA, see what they say. https://www.theaircharterassociation...legal-charter/
And then, think how it feels to see the billionaire you’ve carried in your twin jet, week in, week out, disappear from the schedule, and then spot him walking out to his ‘friend’s’ PC12 for his regular trip... Fury gets nowhere near covering it.
Having stood beside CAA staff watching grey market aircraft appear out of the low overcast, doing their home-made GPS approaches into VFR airports, having sat in meeting rooms with them to discuss exactly this topic, having provided lists of aircraft, crew, passengers, and flights, all of these things, and seen them do NOTHING, I can lay my life on the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
So like I said either the shouting hasn’t been loud enough or the evidence hasn’t been there.
As an aside given the causal / contributory elements of this accident the causal parts had nothing to do with the economics of the flight.
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The economics had everything to do with it; no grey market, no PA46, no unqualified pilot, no deaths.
CAA Prosecutions Says everything you need to know.
CAA Prosecutions Says everything you need to know.
The economics had everything to do with it; no grey market, no PA46, no unqualified pilot, no deaths.
CAA Prosecutions Says everything you need to know.
CAA Prosecutions Says everything you need to know.
however as I’m sure you’re an educated individual once the emotion is taken out of it perhaps the low prosecution number suggests either it isn’t a problem or if it is then the evidence isn’t there or more likely the regulations/guidance are so poorly worded prosecution is impossible..... and yet some champion this authority over EASA. Be careful what you wish for.
The economics had everything to do with it; no grey market, no PA46, no unqualified pilot, no deaths.
CAA Prosecutions Says everything you need to know.
CAA Prosecutions Says everything you need to know.
Unimpressive, but understandable, sadly - I wonder if the lack of grey charter prosecutions is because the people doing these will likely hire expensive lawyers. Hence it's easier to pursue the PPL offenders rather than the bigger fish. Minnows don't bite back much - and 'authority' looks to be doing soemthing.
Anyone who operates a helicopter in the UK will know the individual im referring to at the CAA and will as sure as im sat on my iPhone making predictive text fails will to a man know the absolute veal this guy would get involved with someone he thought was operating illegally. You sir have never sat next to this guy and watched anyone do something illegal.
So like I said either the shouting hasn’t been loud enough or the evidence hasn’t been there.
As an aside given the causal / contributory elements of this accident the causal parts had nothing to do with the economics of the flight.
So like I said either the shouting hasn’t been loud enough or the evidence hasn’t been there.
As an aside given the causal / contributory elements of this accident the causal parts had nothing to do with the economics of the flight.
A bit of investigation found that I could pay for a flight in this device, despite it being flown by a PPL. A quick email to the CAA and a phone call from them to ask me a few questions and it all stopped. So it seems like the rotary enforcer at CAA is doing their job.
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A few years ago we had a single piston-engined vintage helicopter reglarly fly low (below 1,000ft) overhead on certain weekends. This was not long after a couple of high profie helicopter crashes in urban areas.
A bit of investigation found that I could pay for a flight in this device, despite it being flown by a PPL. A quick email to the CAA and a phone call from them to ask me a few questions and it all stopped. So it seems like the rotary enforcer at CAA is doing their job.
A bit of investigation found that I could pay for a flight in this device, despite it being flown by a PPL. A quick email to the CAA and a phone call from them to ask me a few questions and it all stopped. So it seems like the rotary enforcer at CAA is doing their job.
That's OK, is it?
When the scale of illegal public transport is so well known and often very visible I find it disappointing in the extreme that the CAA's lists of (a mere handful of) prosecutions are almost exclusively PPLs with documentation lapses, failure to read NOTAMs or bad nav.
Where are the prosecutions for the hundreds of cases of illegal charter?
It seems clear the CAA enforcement branch must be taking an easy line.
Where are the prosecutions for the hundreds of cases of illegal charter?
It seems clear the CAA enforcement branch must be taking an easy line.
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Clearly, he wasn't prosecuted (at least not successfully). The CAA's record of prosecutions shows that. Mind you, they have stopped admitting their errors, and no longer record their unsuccessful cases, which itself is disgraceful.
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The biggest problem in stopping this practice is the level of evidence required by the regulator before they’ll take action on a report. It is as frustrating as the illegal practice. Unless someone from the regulator is a witness, or as in this case there’s a tragic outcome a prosecution is almost impossible. While it all may quieten down for a while the Henderson’s of this world will be back, other lives will be risked, all to save a few quid.
SND
Once again Pitts you hit your keyboard in ignorance. I’ve been fighting against illegal public transport for years. Well before this case I was subject to some serious threats from some dodgy operators, as have others on this thread been. If you think my outrage is laughable I invite you to my office to take a look at the standards we are required to keep up and the oversight we are subject to.
The biggest problem in stopping this practice is the level of evidence required by the regulator before they’ll take action on a report. It is as frustrating as the illegal practice. Unless someone from the regulator is a witness, or as in this case there’s a tragic outcome a prosecution is almost impossible. While it all may quieten down for a while the Henderson’s of this world will be back, other lives will be risked, all to save a few quid.
SND
The biggest problem in stopping this practice is the level of evidence required by the regulator before they’ll take action on a report. It is as frustrating as the illegal practice. Unless someone from the regulator is a witness, or as in this case there’s a tragic outcome a prosecution is almost impossible. While it all may quieten down for a while the Henderson’s of this world will be back, other lives will be risked, all to save a few quid.
SND
What does that mean?
You and authority have been fighting a multi year effort and you fail to gain traction because of lack of evidence?? So just how wild is the landscape?
With all the email, electronic communication, money transfer, online (and therefore very visible) advertising, a helicopter ops guy at the regulator happy to wade in and no evidence over multi years??? Mystery shop? A go-pro or similar ? I don’t think it’s very hard, it’s not even very resource intensive.
My summary is either this isn’t actually all that common to a level the outrage might suggest or there is more than one blind eye being turned. If it’s the later it’s no time to be shy in outing these people because they are as guilty as any pilot transgressing the ANO.
Look I don’t want to run you over so I’m sorry if my post are/were a little aggressive, it’s not personal it’s just this issue isn’t new and we have regulations to stop it. So let’s keep the debate open because with this type of issue keeping things on top of the table is useful.
So let’s take this illegal charter market as being widespread, the frequency of its abuse is often and over many years.
There are now a limited number of answers given the lack of prosecutions.
Either you raise the issue with heli ops at the regulator and they say “yes we know, nothing to see here.. move on”.
Or perhaps “no we didn’t know that... let’s look... we looked and actually nothing to see here... move on”
Because given what we know about CAA heli ops there is no way they said “thanks but we can’t be bothered to look”. Nor (if the view is that it is the same people doing illegal charter month in month out) can it be credible that over the long term no evidence of such illegal activity exists.
Unless you know different and in which case you should expose all.
So let’s take this illegal charter market as being widespread, the frequency of its abuse is often and over many years.
There are now a limited number of answers given the lack of prosecutions.
Either you raise the issue with heli ops at the regulator and they say “yes we know, nothing to see here.. move on”.
Or perhaps “no we didn’t know that... let’s look... we looked and actually nothing to see here... move on”
Because given what we know about CAA heli ops there is no way they said “thanks but we can’t be bothered to look”. Nor (if the view is that it is the same people doing illegal charter month in month out) can it be credible that over the long term no evidence of such illegal activity exists.
Unless you know different and in which case you should expose all.
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In full agreement with SND. Why should his company go through the whole regulatory system at great cost only to watch SEPs tootling back and forth at TT, Deauville, Ascot, Turweston(Silverstone) et Al for a fraction of the cost with aircraft maintained on LAMPS, Pilots on a PPL with neither an IMC or Night rating never mind a CPL? Asking how many know of this going on is a waste of time. Ask how many don't.
It's dangerous practise and can bring GA only grief if allowed to carry on.
Keep the faith SND and don't stop banging your head against the wall, it will eventually collapse.
It's dangerous practise and can bring GA only grief if allowed to carry on.
Keep the faith SND and don't stop banging your head against the wall, it will eventually collapse.
Avoid imitations
The UK onshore rotary commercial world is really quite small. Many of us with commercial licences have been around long enough to recognise each other on the radio, let alone by sight on the ground. I have known SND for almost twenty years and his credentials are beyond doubt. At some of the busy main events previously mentioned it seems that no-one recognises certain individuals who, by the way they fly appear to be rank amateurs yet by the way they inter-react with their passengers, are undoubtedly being paid to fly them. If they only ever appear on that occasion, doubts are understandably raised. Without fail, the CAA used to send an Ops Inspector to carry out ramp checks at such events. I no longer attend them due to the nature of my present employment so I don’t know if this still occurs. If not, it certainly should occur.
Of course I totally agree so with a small industry, events that highlight or are a focus of such nefarious activity- how hard can it be to find these offenders? It really can’t be, which comes back to the wider point. Either it isn’t happening to such a vast scale or the regulator can’t be bothered and i can’t see how the later becomes the case.
