Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
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BBC News - Emiliano Sala: No further action after manslaughter arrest
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51831150
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51831150
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I wonder if any of it will explain why the other pilot abandoned the other guy to go alone.
And i think the AAIB are wrong not to lift the wreckage, unless they are covering something up.
You could soon get some sub pirates to lift it.
And i think the AAIB are wrong not to lift the wreckage, unless they are covering something up.
You could soon get some sub pirates to lift it.
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Extraordinary
So, after all of this time, money and effort NOTHING will happen.
What happened to the agent or person/company that 'hired' the aircraft and pilot? What happened to the aircraft owner(s)?
These people were involved in an illegal operation and should surely be investigated and appropriate legal action taken.
What is the point of this costly investigation if it results in no action being taken against any of the guilty parties? And what sort of closure has this whitewash provided for Sala's parents and other relatives? None whatsoever.
I am completely baffled by this.
What happened to the agent or person/company that 'hired' the aircraft and pilot? What happened to the aircraft owner(s)?
These people were involved in an illegal operation and should surely be investigated and appropriate legal action taken.
What is the point of this costly investigation if it results in no action being taken against any of the guilty parties? And what sort of closure has this whitewash provided for Sala's parents and other relatives? None whatsoever.
I am completely baffled by this.
Last edited by kit344; 13th Mar 2020 at 15:10. Reason: Add text
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Thanks for the copy of the report.
Here is a quote:"Enforcement is challenging because it requires a large commitment of resources. It also requires the gathering of specific evidence against a pilot or broker which can be difficult to obtain. The Air Charter Association recommends specific steps52 that passengers can take before hiring an aircraft for a charter to verify that the flight will be legitimate. These include asking if the aircraft is licensed and asking to see an AOC and the insurance documents for the aircraft."
Does the average pax nipping off to the Med for a bit of sunshine normally ask to see a company's AOC or the Captain's license? I think not. That is why we have regulatory controls that the public have trust in. I assume that Mr Sala would have thought the same. I would be astonished if the agent(s) booking this flight were unaware that this was a bit of 'an iffy operation' and of course would be reflected in the costs involved. If the hirer had gone to a kosher operation for a Citation say, or similar, the costs would have been dramatically higher, as they (the hirer) would have been well aware of.
And what of the owners of the Piper? Can we seriously imagine that they were completely unaware of what 'their' aircraft was being used for?
I am disappointed and saddened by the authority's approach and final report because I have always been very impressed by the CAA and its various departments that I have had to dealt with over the years.
I do not believe that any of the people involved in the hire of this aircraft and pilot were unaware of its illegality. They should face the music
Here is a quote:"Enforcement is challenging because it requires a large commitment of resources. It also requires the gathering of specific evidence against a pilot or broker which can be difficult to obtain. The Air Charter Association recommends specific steps52 that passengers can take before hiring an aircraft for a charter to verify that the flight will be legitimate. These include asking if the aircraft is licensed and asking to see an AOC and the insurance documents for the aircraft."
Does the average pax nipping off to the Med for a bit of sunshine normally ask to see a company's AOC or the Captain's license? I think not. That is why we have regulatory controls that the public have trust in. I assume that Mr Sala would have thought the same. I would be astonished if the agent(s) booking this flight were unaware that this was a bit of 'an iffy operation' and of course would be reflected in the costs involved. If the hirer had gone to a kosher operation for a Citation say, or similar, the costs would have been dramatically higher, as they (the hirer) would have been well aware of.
And what of the owners of the Piper? Can we seriously imagine that they were completely unaware of what 'their' aircraft was being used for?
I am disappointed and saddened by the authority's approach and final report because I have always been very impressed by the CAA and its various departments that I have had to dealt with over the years.
I do not believe that any of the people involved in the hire of this aircraft and pilot were unaware of its illegality. They should face the music
What is the point of this costly investigation if it results in no action being taken against any of the guilty parties?
I am disappointed and saddened by the authority's approach and final report because I have always been very impressed by the CAA
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The AAIB just investigate the cause of the accident, one would assume to report on anything significant that might effect other aircraft's flight safety.
To that end the aircraft should have been pulled from the sea floor and at the least the exhaust tested to confirm or deny the CO2 theory.
It just seems they are hiding something.
It's then up to the CAA to investigate parties concerned as to the legalities of the flight, with the police then going i assume to cps for any prosecutions.
And what of the other pilot, did he not feel a duty of care knowing the experience of the crash pilot.
What was his reason for not flying the aircraft. I would suggest we will never be allowed to know.
To that end the aircraft should have been pulled from the sea floor and at the least the exhaust tested to confirm or deny the CO2 theory.
It just seems they are hiding something.
It's then up to the CAA to investigate parties concerned as to the legalities of the flight, with the police then going i assume to cps for any prosecutions.
And what of the other pilot, did he not feel a duty of care knowing the experience of the crash pilot.
What was his reason for not flying the aircraft. I would suggest we will never be allowed to know.
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This reminds me of the FAA's culpability towards the MAX. The comparison to me is "peanuts for monkeys", insufficient funding for authorities such as the FAA and CAA means they don't check well enough. It s balancing the cost versus the risk and sometimes things go wrong but in aviation often at a human cost.
I would love to see the owner, operator, pilot and "fixer" of the charter brought to court. Even at the risk of not being convicted, I would hope such a public shaming would help reduce this outrage. I mean come on! A pilot flying illegally in multiple ways in a sub standard plane!? And then as a way of moving forward the AAIB suggesting the client checks the operators and pilots license!? The client will never be able to do this, he has to be able to rely on his "fixer".
The pilot and planes licensing web is so complex that on this thread alone there were multiple debates about a UK license with a piggy back FAA license, with restrictions etc and what would be the correct interpretation. The client will never be able to do this, he has to be able to rely on the fixer. That fixer needs bringing to court along the others. The public deserves protection. The lack of outrage worries me.
My two cents.
I would love to see the owner, operator, pilot and "fixer" of the charter brought to court. Even at the risk of not being convicted, I would hope such a public shaming would help reduce this outrage. I mean come on! A pilot flying illegally in multiple ways in a sub standard plane!? And then as a way of moving forward the AAIB suggesting the client checks the operators and pilots license!? The client will never be able to do this, he has to be able to rely on his "fixer".
The pilot and planes licensing web is so complex that on this thread alone there were multiple debates about a UK license with a piggy back FAA license, with restrictions etc and what would be the correct interpretation. The client will never be able to do this, he has to be able to rely on the fixer. That fixer needs bringing to court along the others. The public deserves protection. The lack of outrage worries me.
My two cents.
Paxing All Over The World
Someone tried to save money. The transfer fee for Sala is reported at £15m If I had paid 15m for a person - I'd be sure to make sure they were transported with the greatest of care.
I suspect that this process of transporting players (who do no tlive near regional or hub airports) has been going on for some time and has, 'Always worked before'.
I suspect that this process of transporting players (who do no tlive near regional or hub airports) has been going on for some time and has, 'Always worked before'.
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More importantly, AAIB’s primacy prevents effective investigation in cases where blame is exactly what’s needed (albeit through the courts). The Sala report’s almost total dismissal of the ‘grey market’ aspects of this crash is deeply worrying. We know the AAIB is an incredibly engineering-led organisation, despite working in a world where human factors are of much greater importance (just count the pages dedicated to the output of the two disciplines), but that shouldn’t mean it dismisses the fundamental causes, which in Sala, begin with the existence of the grey market and the total unwillingness of regulators (especially the UK CAA) to deal with it.
The AAIB has nothing to do with the CAA.
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But as a football manager, whose view on air travel is that it’s highly regulated and very prestige, how would you even begin to know that you weren’t applying that care, when credible shysters are selling you charter? The CAA view that ‘The first part of the approach is to educate the travelling public’, which is not challenged by the AAIB, is fantasy. The first part has to be proper regulation. In this regard, and conveniently assisted by the very fortuitous CO finding, the report is a whitewash.
Last edited by Kit Sanbumps KG; 14th Mar 2020 at 05:57.
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It’s a simple fact that the AAIB does routinely apportion blame, by identifying pilots (and others) as responsible for events in which they played a role rather than looking for deeper ‘causes’ (they have only one human factors advisor on their staff). In the March bulletin, an airline crew are described as ‘Rushing to complete the pre‐takeoff procedures’. ‘Rushing’ is the act the report says they carried out, it is connected to the event, and therefore is blame. The report, by the way, contains absolutely no effort to address the repetitive nature of the fundamental issue, incorrect performance, and is deficient.
More importantly, AAIB’s primacy prevents effective investigation in cases where blame is exactly what’s needed (albeit through the courts). The Sala report’s almost total dismissal of the ‘grey market’ aspects of this crash is deeply worrying. We know the AAIB is an incredibly engineering-led organisation, despite working in a world where human factors are of much greater importance (just count the pages dedicated to the output of the two disciplines), but that shouldn’t mean it dismisses the fundamental causes, which in Sala, begin with the existence of the grey market and the total unwillingness of regulators (especially the UK CAA) to deal with it.
The two organisations are inextricably linked, as the most senior staff of both report in to the SoSfT, including for their ‘performance management’. It doesn’t take a genius to work out what the consequences of that are.
More importantly, AAIB’s primacy prevents effective investigation in cases where blame is exactly what’s needed (albeit through the courts). The Sala report’s almost total dismissal of the ‘grey market’ aspects of this crash is deeply worrying. We know the AAIB is an incredibly engineering-led organisation, despite working in a world where human factors are of much greater importance (just count the pages dedicated to the output of the two disciplines), but that shouldn’t mean it dismisses the fundamental causes, which in Sala, begin with the existence of the grey market and the total unwillingness of regulators (especially the UK CAA) to deal with it.
The two organisations are inextricably linked, as the most senior staff of both report in to the SoSfT, including for their ‘performance management’. It doesn’t take a genius to work out what the consequences of that are.
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I'm seriously outraged. The report actually said little that wasn't already obvious, and is an AAIB masterclass in impartiality. (having been through the AAIB process I've had read to me the statement read to anyone questioned after an accident. The AAIB state that they are there to find out why it happened, not to apportion blame or be involved in criminal or disciplinary procedures) An inadequate, and apparently unlicensed pilot was given the opportunity to kill himself and an innocent third party by a person who spat in the face of the rules in place to protect the paying public. While Henderson may have got away with the manslaughter charges I suspect the illegal public transport may see him accomodated by Her Majesty for some time.
The loosening of the rules around "cost sharing" has made illegal charter even harder to pin down. Illegal charter has always happened, in my job I've seen angry pilots take an illegal charter pilot behind a building and administer some discipline. I run an AOC and live with the onerous burden of the oversight and compliance we are expected to deal with daily. I've watched a PPL with 200 hours laughing at commercial crews because he was being paid to fly a PA28 with paying customers to an airport for a good amount of cash.
I've seen the "cost sharing" websites and calculated the advertised costs of the flight against the real costs and worked out that some people are making hefty profits. Helicopter pilots taking sightseeing flights down the Thames not realising that an AOC doing the same thing has to have a non-standard flight plan in place, he thinks it doesn't apply to him as he's private and "all that **** is AOC ****" actually it applies to him as well.
This was a high profile accident, it highlighted a serious problem in UK aviation. This is a PROFESSIONAL PILOTS RUMOUR NETWORK, a lot of people on here are PPL's, and many high time ATPL's, well get this, ignorance of the rules and claiming "I'm private" is not acceptable, you share the sky with all of us making a legal living, you live by the rules we do, because when it goes wrong, if you're outside the rules you'll be in a world of hurt and all the pro's will be commenting on what a c### you are. I'd really like to see more people on here questioning what they want to do when flying, because some pilots on here have vast levels of experience, have made a lot of the available mistakes and have knowledge in many useful areas, perhaps the Private Flying Forum could be steered more this way.
Ibbotson would have known his license status, could have saved a lot of expense and hassle by just killing Sala when they first met, rather than getting into a doubtful aircraft without a valid license on which he was intending to be paid. Henderson gave him the weapon and desreves the opprobrium of the entire aviation community, the MacKays claim they thought Henderson was acting legally. Come off it chaps, it was all very cheap and you thought you were just getting a good deal, and lets face it you have history with aviation, you know how expensive it can be. And for the biggest fool of the lot in my opinion, the man who claims great aviation knowledge and experience, who's pronouncements about PBN approaches recently have shown just how worthless your knowledge and impartiality are, I give you the Rt Hon Grant Shapps, Secretary of State for Transport, the man who unmuzzled the "cost sharing" rules and made illegal public transport so much easier. Take the smarmy smile off Grant, you've been terribly quiet about this, a statement from you on how Illegal Public Transport will be tackled would be good, or maybe I'm a bit wrong about you and you won't stoop to such hypocrisy knowing that certain members of the media will flay you alive. I've given a lot of my time over the last 30 years to many aviation safety causes, there's an occasional word of thanks which I always greatly appreciate, but F### you Grant, I'm not giving my time (which actually costs my company) any longer while such an egregious fool as you spins in his big leather chair and riks the lives of the public and the employment of thousands of people in this country.
Yes I'm outraged, F###ing outraged! I work my arse off and risk my home and all my assetts to keep AOC staff employed when people try to steal from me and my team, then kill an innocent and cause untold damage to the industry I've worked in for over 30 years. This case frankly sickens me.
SND
The loosening of the rules around "cost sharing" has made illegal charter even harder to pin down. Illegal charter has always happened, in my job I've seen angry pilots take an illegal charter pilot behind a building and administer some discipline. I run an AOC and live with the onerous burden of the oversight and compliance we are expected to deal with daily. I've watched a PPL with 200 hours laughing at commercial crews because he was being paid to fly a PA28 with paying customers to an airport for a good amount of cash.
I've seen the "cost sharing" websites and calculated the advertised costs of the flight against the real costs and worked out that some people are making hefty profits. Helicopter pilots taking sightseeing flights down the Thames not realising that an AOC doing the same thing has to have a non-standard flight plan in place, he thinks it doesn't apply to him as he's private and "all that **** is AOC ****" actually it applies to him as well.
This was a high profile accident, it highlighted a serious problem in UK aviation. This is a PROFESSIONAL PILOTS RUMOUR NETWORK, a lot of people on here are PPL's, and many high time ATPL's, well get this, ignorance of the rules and claiming "I'm private" is not acceptable, you share the sky with all of us making a legal living, you live by the rules we do, because when it goes wrong, if you're outside the rules you'll be in a world of hurt and all the pro's will be commenting on what a c### you are. I'd really like to see more people on here questioning what they want to do when flying, because some pilots on here have vast levels of experience, have made a lot of the available mistakes and have knowledge in many useful areas, perhaps the Private Flying Forum could be steered more this way.
Ibbotson would have known his license status, could have saved a lot of expense and hassle by just killing Sala when they first met, rather than getting into a doubtful aircraft without a valid license on which he was intending to be paid. Henderson gave him the weapon and desreves the opprobrium of the entire aviation community, the MacKays claim they thought Henderson was acting legally. Come off it chaps, it was all very cheap and you thought you were just getting a good deal, and lets face it you have history with aviation, you know how expensive it can be. And for the biggest fool of the lot in my opinion, the man who claims great aviation knowledge and experience, who's pronouncements about PBN approaches recently have shown just how worthless your knowledge and impartiality are, I give you the Rt Hon Grant Shapps, Secretary of State for Transport, the man who unmuzzled the "cost sharing" rules and made illegal public transport so much easier. Take the smarmy smile off Grant, you've been terribly quiet about this, a statement from you on how Illegal Public Transport will be tackled would be good, or maybe I'm a bit wrong about you and you won't stoop to such hypocrisy knowing that certain members of the media will flay you alive. I've given a lot of my time over the last 30 years to many aviation safety causes, there's an occasional word of thanks which I always greatly appreciate, but F### you Grant, I'm not giving my time (which actually costs my company) any longer while such an egregious fool as you spins in his big leather chair and riks the lives of the public and the employment of thousands of people in this country.
Yes I'm outraged, F###ing outraged! I work my arse off and risk my home and all my assetts to keep AOC staff employed when people try to steal from me and my team, then kill an innocent and cause untold damage to the industry I've worked in for over 30 years. This case frankly sickens me.
SND
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But as a football manager, whose view on air travel is that it’s highly regulated and very prestige, how would you even begin to know that you weren’t applying that care, when credible shysters are selling you charter? The CAA view that ‘The first part of the approach is to educate the travelling public’, which is not challenged by the AAIB, is fantasy. The first part has to be proper regulation. In this regard, and conveniently assisted by the very fortuitous CO finding, the report is a whitewash.
In this case the owner, the trust company, has handed the aircraft over to an aircraft manager without any legal agreement as to how the aircraft is to be used and seemingly without recourse to financial indemnity for any professional incompetence.
Of course the owner, may have just have been acting on instructions from the beneficial owner. The beneficial owner being a professional person who full well understands the professional management of assets, you have the aircraft owner, the beneficial owner and the aircraft manager all acting in a reckless way with nobody prepared to put a check on the other parties.
I, too, was disappointed by the bland statements in the report. It would be difficult to get much out of it if you hadn't followed this thread here. I wonder what part of "Investigation" in their title led them to this apparently deliberate minimalist approach.
I was also surprised how much of the detail of the Malibu, which I always thought, being pressurised etc, was a sophisticated aircraft, came over as little different to my PA28.
I was also surprised how much of the detail of the Malibu, which I always thought, being pressurised etc, was a sophisticated aircraft, came over as little different to my PA28.
Moderator
I'd really like to see more people on here questioning what they want to do when flying, because some pilots on here have vast levels of experience, have made a lot of the available mistakes and have knowledge in many useful areas, perhaps the Private Flying Forum could be steered more this way.
....a sophisticated aircraft, came over as little different to my PA28.
Very well said, SND. This is a truly appalling story. I am a (long time) private pilot and ex-instructor married to a commercial pilot, so I have a foot in both camps so to speak. That a private pilot was masquerading as a qualified commercial pilot is effectively fraud, Plenty people must have been aware of it.
My simplistic view is first that every pilot has a duty of care to his or her passengers, regardless. Ibbotson failed us all by what reads to be a cavalier and illegal approach to that duty. That taints us all in the eyes of the public.
That cavalier approach to safety and law appears to have been part and parcel of how this aircraft was being operated. It cannot have been accidental or due to unintended 'oversights'.
Given how firmly the CAA imply they will prosecute on any minor operational transgressions we may carry out, I do hope they will pursue this strongly, even if a conviction is unlikely to result, This is worth doing to try to discourage some of this 'grey' illegal activity and to make Joe & Joanna Public more aware and more alert to the risks.
My simplistic view is first that every pilot has a duty of care to his or her passengers, regardless. Ibbotson failed us all by what reads to be a cavalier and illegal approach to that duty. That taints us all in the eyes of the public.
That cavalier approach to safety and law appears to have been part and parcel of how this aircraft was being operated. It cannot have been accidental or due to unintended 'oversights'.
Given how firmly the CAA imply they will prosecute on any minor operational transgressions we may carry out, I do hope they will pursue this strongly, even if a conviction is unlikely to result, This is worth doing to try to discourage some of this 'grey' illegal activity and to make Joe & Joanna Public more aware and more alert to the risks.
I wonder what part of "Investigation" in their title led them to this apparently deliberate minimalist approach. I was also surprised how much of the detail of the Malibu, which I always thought, being pressurised etc, was a sophisticated aircraft, came over as little different to my PA28.