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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 17th Aug 2019, 05:59
  #1981 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BigEndBob
Lets face it CO from the exhaust would probably include all the other horrible stuff that stinks...
And yet so many people have died from CO in cars, on boats, without noticing anything else in time.
Empirically, your logic is wrong.

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Old 17th Aug 2019, 07:54
  #1982 (permalink)  
 
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CO happens all the time. From our local paper yesterday ...
A car enthusiast died from carbon monoxide poisoning after running his engine while working on his vehicle in a garage, an inquest has heard.
https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2...r-in-a-garage/
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 13:12
  #1983 (permalink)  
 
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DavidReidUK

I trained a few FAA pilots on the Do328jet and ALL of them had great respect for The FAA and intended to keep their path as per rules and regs . Obsessively so in some cases.
And the FAA Inspectors I trained was a Chapter of its own.
With that as my background dealing with the FAA, I find it rather odd the arrangement with the UK CAA.
Now this was from 1999 to 2004 , if I remember correctly and considering the latest development in FAA with regards to lack of oversight at the heavy end of things, I suspect this tragic and avoidable accident will have consequences. In a positive was for flight safety.

I suspect EASA might hold this accident against the FAA and UK CAA.
I certainly do.

Regards
Cpt B
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 18:42
  #1984 (permalink)  
 
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The first chapter in this drama was about the credentials of the pilot. The second chapter has now started with the aircraft brought in to the drama. But by far it will be the third chapter which will be the climax, when its authors and editors are revealed to the audience.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 09:33
  #1985 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus
The first chapter in this drama was about the credentials of the pilot. The second chapter has now started with the aircraft brought in to the drama. But by far it will be the third chapter which will be the climax, when its authors and editors are revealed to the audience.
The 2 empty properties associated with the Keelys being used as a Registered Address adds a certain air of mystery! Dark forces at play here, methinks.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 10:17
  #1986 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus
The first chapter in this drama was about the credentials of the pilot. The second chapter has now started with the aircraft brought in to the drama. But by far it will be the third chapter which will be the climax, when its authors and editors are revealed to the audience.
Those authors and editors have of course had a significant period of time over which to collude and compare discoverable data, having dealt ”professionally” with some of the named individuals I’ll be very interested in the official understanding of the complex arrangements surrounding the ownership and operation of the aircraft, the maintenance of the aircraft and the commissioning of this fateful flight. Most of the named individuals have within my knowledge previously been involved in shady aircraft operations, commonly but not exclusively with US registered aircraft.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 17:30
  #1987 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by booke23
Would this explain why it took so long for the AAIB to disclose these results? (i.e. the testing procedure in these circumstances is very protracted)
Very possibly. I expect that they used multiple different assay methods, although it's a little odd that the value was given as a single number rather than a confidence range.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 18:14
  #1988 (permalink)  
 
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Double Barrel

If you use a single number in court you have to be precisely correct, if you use a confidence range the chances of it getting pulled apart by some smart lawyer are much reduced.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 18:47
  #1989 (permalink)  
 
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Considerations regarding ownership of the aircraft involve the reasons behind the choice for N registration for an aircraft based and operating in the EU. Here is an extract from am article published in Avbuyer, https://www.avbuyer.com/articles/ga-...n-trust-112085

"3. Non-US citizens may find it difficult to register their private aircraft in their home country.

The FAA has very favorable maintenance and registration requirements, and they are known for being supportive and understanding of private aviation. Some countries, however, have aircraft requirements that focus on the operations of commercial airliners. Their rules and regulations can be very onerous and burdensome to private aircraft owners. For this reason, owners may choose to register their aircraft outside of their home country. For example, in our interview with client Roger Harr, Roger pointed out that he was one of the first Cirrus owners in Europe. He bought his Cirrus before it was approved for purchase by EASA (the European Aviation Safety Agency), and the only way he could own and operate his new plane was to register it in the United States. Owners who live in countries with similar limitations on GA aircraft, may create a trust so that they can register their aircraft with the FAA in the United States."

Which then acutely aggravates the all too important question that has now arisen ,given the CAA report regarding the finding of high levels of CO on the remains of the passenger. What does very favourable, supportive and understanding mean. With the B737 MAX fiasco still unresolved, and today another big article about it in the Sunday Times, does it not perhaps cast more dark shadows over the FAA and our regulators in their role of guardians of public safety.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 19:37
  #1990 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus
What does very favourable, supportive and understanding mean. With the B737 MAX fiasco still unresolved, and today another big article about it in the Sunday Times, does it not perhaps cast more dark shadows over the FAA and our regulators in their role of guardians of public safety.
An FAA registered aircraft with a standard type certificate requires periodic inspection by an airframe and power plant mechanic with Inspection Authorization. That inspection is required at least once every 12 calendar months but may also be needed after 100 hours if that occurs first. What does, or does not, pass inspection is completely up to the IA performing the inspection. There is a huge range of "tolerance" for minor imperfections. I doubt any aircraft would ever pass inspection if every tiny discrepancy was grounds for failure.

My IA has also given my recent flight reviews. He signs off my airplane and he is prepared to fly in it. That's good enough for me.

The condition of a privately owned aircraft has little to do with FAA oversight or their concern with public safety.

Last edited by EXDAC; 19th Aug 2019 at 02:38. Reason: Correct AI to IA
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 10:37
  #1991 (permalink)  
 
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A forty year old aircraft that FAA records apparently show has had no previous owners before the present shady one?
Despite being an aircraft that is alleged to have changed hands four times in one day? Four times? What possible reason can there be for that if not to cover up or obfuscate ownership and accountability?
An aircraft whose apparent owners' and close associates' addresses are all empty properties?
An aircraft involved in an fatal accident whose owner does not make themselves known?
An aircraft flown by an unlicenced pilot who appears to have identified himself at the airport of departure as someone else?

Never mind the entire operating environment surrounding the damn thing viz the whole business of football/racing charters, shady 'football managers' acting as charter brokers, maintenance organisations who have walked away from it etc.

To suggest this isn't an utter Pandora's Box of illegality from end to end is somewhat far-fetched, imo.

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Old 19th Aug 2019, 14:11
  #1992 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11
The 2 empty properties associated with the Keelys being used as a Registered Address adds a certain air of mystery! Dark forces at play here, methinks.
As Terence Keely is dead, it would have been extremely surprising if he had been in residence when the Daily Mail called at his mansion.

Last edited by runway30; 19th Aug 2019 at 14:40.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 14:27
  #1993 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia


No it doesn’t. The whole flight was illegal, CO poisoning doesn’t let anybody off the hook, from the statement by the engineer/airfield owner things may be even worse. An illegal flight in an aircraft that may have been known to have airworthiness problems. I truly hope that someone goes to prison for a very long time.

Illegal CAT still goes on despite this sorry mess, reporting it achieves bugger all. This was a high profile accident, I know of at least 2 others, one with no injuries, one where just the pilot died. Hopefully Sala’s death may help shine a light on all the cowboys who think that what they do is acceptable practice.

SND
SND, whilst I could see the causal link between the death and hiring an unqualified pilot if the unqualified pilot lost control because the flight was way beyond his abilities, I can't see the causal link between hiring the unqualified pilot and death due to CO poisoning unless your allegation is that a qualified pilot would have identified the leak before death occurred or are you suggesting that the Aircraft Manager knew of the CO leak and allowed the flight to take place anyway or that he was so negligent in the maintenance of the aircraft that an accident was likely to occur?
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 17:24
  #1994 (permalink)  
 
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Flags of convenience are fine until something goes wrong.

In this case it would be a miracle if the insurers pay out.

N reg allows a lot of latitude in terms of where the buck stops.

Added to the complicated registration/ trust scenario is a the fact that the USA allows UK based based aircraft to be registered via a tiny company in East Anglia. In most cases these aircraft will never again see the USA.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

Which is fine and dandy until we see a multi million pound accident such as this one.

Who oversaw who in this tragic timeline?

Pretty much no one.

There is plenty of evidence out there that the aircraft was producing revenue for the beneficiaries of trust by transporting jockys to racecourses as well as the work it undertook with Cardiff City Football Club’s agent. No one rents their investment for nothing.

All of this grey charter work was outside the control of the UK Civil Aviation Authority.

UK road legislation only permits foreign cars to a maximum of twelve months before they have to be registered as being home based. That stops the scam of uninsured and no MOT cars being used here. A UK resident cannot use a foreign car unless they are based on the continent. (Soon to change with Brexit)

These days most global shipping is registered in countries such as Panama and Liberia so that the crewing and operations are able to exploit cheap labour and lax regulation.

Many defend the N register for private aircraft owners as it allows an easier route to aircraft modifications and flying rules. Add to that the fact it is also cheaper.

I hope this accident will close the N reg lark in the UK for good and bring regulatory powers over all UK based aircraft back under the wing of the CAA.

Last edited by Mike Flynn; 19th Aug 2019 at 17:34.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 17:30
  #1995 (permalink)  
 
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The reason for the legal requirements of flying public transport are to put in place the checks and balances that assure to the greatest degree posable that an accident won’t happen and this costs a considerable amount of money.

The reason for illegal public transport is to do things on the cheap by ignoring the rules put in place for safety.

This case illustrates perfectly the result of such practices and it matters not the particular holes in the Swiss cheese that aligned to create the inevitable result.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 17:43
  #1996 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed A and C.

The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules.

On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world.

Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for but these people sadly undermine the legal operators business model.

If I was running an AOC operation I would be extremely angry to see cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA?




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Old 19th Aug 2019, 17:57
  #1997 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30
As Terence Keely is dead, it would have been extremely surprising if he had been in residence when the Daily Mail called at his mansion.
Apologies ... I confused myself with mention of the ‘untraced sister’.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 18:47
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
Flags of convenience are fine until something goes wrong.

In this case it would be a miracle if the insurers pay out.

N reg allows a lot of latitude in terms of where the buck stops.

Added to the complicated registration/ trust scenario is a the fact that the USA allows UK based based aircraft to be registered via a tiny company in East Anglia. In most cases these aircraft will never again see the USA.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

Which is fine and dandy until we see a multi million pound accident such as this one.

Who oversaw who in this tragic timeline?

Pretty much no one.

There is plenty of evidence out there that the aircraft was producing revenue for the beneficiaries of trust by transporting jockys to racecourses as well as the work it undertook with Cardiff City Football Club’s agent. No one rents their investment for nothing.

All of this grey charter work was outside the control of the UK Civil Aviation Authority.

UK road legislation only permits foreign cars to a maximum of twelve months before they have to be registered as being home based. That stops the scam of uninsured and no MOT cars being used here. A UK resident cannot use a foreign car unless they are based on the continent. (Soon to change with Brexit)

These days most global shipping is registered in countries such as Panama and Liberia so that the crewing and operations are able to exploit cheap labour and lax regulation.

Many defend the N register for private aircraft owners as it allows an easier route to aircraft modifications and flying rules. Add to that the fact it is also cheaper.

I hope this accident will close the N reg lark in the UK for good and bring regulatory powers over all UK based aircraft back under the wing of the CAA.
Yes all that said above makes sense.
A typical scenario might go like this.
Sir/ Madam of UK company is doing well in business and fancies increasing social standing score and gets a PPL. Has a little chat with tame bean counter as to best way to make it tax efficient Bean counter says, well we`ve got to have a good look and s sorry about mentioning that dirty word, but we must have a good look and see about VAT. W`ve also got to show some revenue from it in the books and in case you decide to pull plug on company best it be owned by a trust, so no tax man and bailiff can get their filthy mitts on it Sir/Mam. Off goes Sir/Mam to find a chap around the club who knows about these things and hey presto here is the ideal solution , a N reg job registered to a US trust corporation.
Now who would have thought some half wit would have lent the damn thing to another half wit who then let another mate borrow it who in turn it gave the keys to a heating engineer could fix its central heating as he was so keen on flying anyway and the whole lot ended up in a terrific mess. The whole thing is just so incredible, how can anyone blame such Sirs and Mams for such a string of unforseeable and unfortunate events, M`Lud.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 19:12
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This is a bit like renting a car.

You don’t know or care where the likes of Hertz,Sixt,Eurocar etc are based for tax or other reasons.

Everything is fine until it all goes wrong.

Trusts,limited companies etc all provide separation to allow the person who might be carrying the can to avoid liability.

However if there are people in the middle not wise enough to think about the bigger picture they can lose everything.

As I said earlier there are some complicated legal cases on the horizon in this one and
the matter of the FAA register,the CAA regulator , trusts and insurance companies are going to be a key issue.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 19:46
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Originally Posted by runway30
SND, whilst I could see the causal link between the death and hiring an unqualified pilot if the unqualified pilot lost control because the flight was way beyond his abilities, I can't see the causal link between hiring the unqualified pilot and death due to CO poisoning unless your allegation is that a qualified pilot would have identified the leak before death occurred or are you suggesting that the Aircraft Manager knew of the CO leak and allowed the flight to take place anyway or that he was so negligent in the maintenance of the aircraft that an accident was likely to occur?
CO poisoning is almost impossible to detect until it’s nearly too late. However, there is no excuse, CO poisoning or not for an unqualified pilot carrying out this flight. Ibbotson knew he was unqualified, Henderson I suspect knew he was unqualified and an innocent life was lost.

I’ve spent a career in CAT operations watching cowboys taking the piss because they do it cheap, no one stops them and those of us with all the checks and balances in place lose business to these cheating s***s who laugh and lie their way out.

While I feel sorry for the loss and publicity Ibbotson’s family have suffered I hope his death may finally mean someone grasps illegal CAT and the operators by the throat and squeezes, hard.

Pilots are advertising helicopter sight seeing flights along the Thames, with 70 hours on their PPL and not knowing that for CAT a non-standard flight plan is required. It’s 20 years since I last flew a sightseeing flight, but I know what they mean to the real operators,

At a UK Airport last week I met an elderly lady whose son had paid for her to use the aircraft and pilot he hires regularly to take the mother to meet a friend. Cocky bloke in his 4 seat single and his PPL charging for a charter. Fancy putting your mum’s safety in the hands of a couple of hundred hour PPL in iffy weather?

Ignore CO poisoning, it had no more relevance than a mild cold in this case. The flight was illegal and Sala was killed by people prepared to take a risk for a few quid, and from information now coming out about airworthiness, or lack of It sounds worse than at first thought.

I make no apology for my anger, I have to work my arse off to keep the staff employed and the aircraft paid for and then answer questions about how Sala died and are we safe. My passengers are, at a price, I suspect a lot of passengers in the UK now aren’t.

I still await Grant Shapps response to how his “freeing up GA” has enhanced safety.

SND
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