Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
"Well I'm happy to suggest that a properly-maintained aircraft is very unlikely to expose its pilot and passenger(s) to excessive carbon monoxide."
Agreed. But CO accidents are very infrequent.
What maintenance check detects a thin spot in an exhaust or a developing gasket fault?
I've had a few exhaust replacements and exhaust gasket leaks, but ALL were spotted AFTER the leakage had started, sometimes with detection in flight by engine noise or CO detector - spot black and detector (from B&Q) bleeping. Sometimes at check by soot stain.
But the leak was already there.
Agreed. But CO accidents are very infrequent.
What maintenance check detects a thin spot in an exhaust or a developing gasket fault?
I've had a few exhaust replacements and exhaust gasket leaks, but ALL were spotted AFTER the leakage had started, sometimes with detection in flight by engine noise or CO detector - spot black and detector (from B&Q) bleeping. Sometimes at check by soot stain.
But the leak was already there.
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Well this changes things. For all his faults re licensing etc, it seems the pilot's last moments may have been spent heroically trying to put the aircraft down in a controlled fashion knowing he was about to loose consciousness.....although we'll never know for sure.
I wonder why this information has only been disclosed now. I presume the CO concentration in the passenger's bloodstream was discovered during toxicology testing from the post mortem....i.e. 6 months ago.
Surely this information would have warranted the wreckage being recovered for examination....but 6 months of saltwater immersion won't exactly make finding the fault in the aircraft easy now.
I have the greatest respect for the AAIB, but I do wonder if budgetary considerations are having a negative impact on some if their investigations these days. It is now clear that wreckage should have been recovered at the time.
I wonder why this information has only been disclosed now. I presume the CO concentration in the passenger's bloodstream was discovered during toxicology testing from the post mortem....i.e. 6 months ago.
Surely this information would have warranted the wreckage being recovered for examination....but 6 months of saltwater immersion won't exactly make finding the fault in the aircraft easy now.
I have the greatest respect for the AAIB, but I do wonder if budgetary considerations are having a negative impact on some if their investigations these days. It is now clear that wreckage should have been recovered at the time.
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I am currently doing the PPL, and very recently read in ground material about the possibility of fumes and/or CO entering the cockpit.
I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
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MPN11
The aircraft took off with an unqualified pilot in to IMC conditions flying a paying passenger ( someone paid ) there was no AoC in place. The flight was in a single engine piston over water at night and there was no legal way to make the flight under the rules of the state of registration....... and now we find out that it is very likely both the pilot and definitely passenger had enough CO inside them to incapacitate them at the very least.
Are you surprised that the maintenance is called into Question ? His whole sorry affaire seems to have left no rule unbroken from an operational point of view, perhaps its time to look at the maintenance as well.
Are you surprised that the maintenance is called into Question ? His whole sorry affaire seems to have left no rule unbroken from an operational point of view, perhaps its time to look at the maintenance as well.
I am currently doing the PPL, and recently read in ground material about the possibility of fumes and/or CO entering the cockpit.
I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
Pooley's (as ever) is your friend when you're a rookie...and when you're a veteran.
https://www.pooleys.com/shop/categor...ide-detectors/
You know, a lot of this flying business...is down to you...your personal responsibility...
Given this Thread...that's a poignant comment...
Two key aspects of this development no-one else seems to be commenting on:
1. Given Sala's body was recovered months ago, surely AAIB have know about this for a long time. If so, why only publish now?
2. Identification of wreckage and recovery of Sala's body was funded privately, not by AAIB, was it not? If so, and given significance of findings of toxicology tests, why did AAIB not arrange search? Of course, they were not to know this in advance, but they would know that identification of wreckage would increase the probability of identifying cause of accident, which is their role.
Taking these points together, were AAIB asleep on the job?
KP
1. Given Sala's body was recovered months ago, surely AAIB have know about this for a long time. If so, why only publish now?
2. Identification of wreckage and recovery of Sala's body was funded privately, not by AAIB, was it not? If so, and given significance of findings of toxicology tests, why did AAIB not arrange search? Of course, they were not to know this in advance, but they would know that identification of wreckage would increase the probability of identifying cause of accident, which is their role.
Taking these points together, were AAIB asleep on the job?
KP
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Auxtank may recall Emiliano Sala’s own voice message in which he said he was scared and that it seemed as if the plane was falling apart - and that was before take off
Daily Mail Exclusive...
A doomed plane which leaked carbon monoxide poisoning footballer Emiliano Sala and his pilot before crashing into the sea had previously been so riddled with faults that an engineer refused to repair it, saying: 'It was not fit to be flown.'
Airfield owner Humphrey Penney revealed the craft had 'a lot of problems' and regular pilot David Henderson was 'unhappy with the maintenance.'
Mr Penney, who is also a licensed engineer, was asked to give a second opinion on the stricken Piper PA-46 Malibu in summer last year.
He spoke out for the first time following today's interim report published by the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch which showed that 28-year-old Argentinian striker Sala and his pilot David Ibbotson were exposed to deadly levels of the toxic gas even before the private plane plunged into the English Channel.
Speaking exclusively to MailOnline, Mr Penney said: 'What happened it all so sad and tragic.
We had deep concerns about the plane when we looked it at a year ago.
We nearly took it on but didn't because there were so many problems with it.'Mr Henderson, originally thought to be the pilot who perished on the plane, had taken it to Sandtoft Airport in Belton, North Lincolnshire, on behalf of the owner chartered accountant Faye Kelly.
Sandtoft boss Mr Penney, recalling his examination of the plane, said: 'Christ, this is awful!
A lot needs doing.'
He added: 'The hydraulic motor was a shambles and the flaps, autopilot and de-icing system weren't working and there were several other problems.
Airfield owner Humphrey Penney (pictured) revealed the craft had 'a lot of problems' and regular pilot David Henderson was 'unhappy with the maintenance''There was a long list of things things that needed doing and it was going to cost an awful lot of money to put it right, in the region of £14,000 to £20,000.'
It was not in a fit state to be flown for a passenger but only in an emergency a short distance for maintenance and to get it fixed.'
The American craft registered to a Trust with a beneficial British owner, Ms Keely from Bonsall, Derbyshire - a pilot herself - had come to Mr Penney for a second expert opinion from Retford Gamston Airport in Gamston, Nottinghamshire, where it had been based long term.Mr Penney said: '
It was moved here for a relatively short period and we then sent it to another organisation for the recommended work to be done.
I can't comment on what work was later done.'
The plane was moved to nearby Sturgate Airfield in Gainsborough, Lincolnshire.
No one was available to comment today when approached by MailOnline.Mr Penney added:
'I cannot say if the maintenance was done thoroughly and properly and if it was all fixed but the plane would have had an annual inspection at the end of the year.
If all was good and dandy the plane should have flown safely.
'I know a very large bill for over £10,000 was presented to Faye.'Mr Penney, is now helping air investigators following the shocking crash on January 21 killing new £15 million Cardiff City striker Sala and married father Mr Ibbotson, 59, from Scunthorpe, Lincolnshire,
He told MailOnline he was 'a little surprised' by the bombshell report stating that the footballer had CO saturation levels of 58 per cent in his blood stream and the pilot was overcome by lethal fumes too, saying: 'I was not expecting that.
That is new information.
'He said that even the 'tiniest hole' in a plane's exhaust can cause a carbon monoxide leak, adding: 'One of the first things to go is the muffler, which goes over the exhaust system to warm the air coming into the craft.
Even the tiniest hole can cause carbon monoxide to pour through the exhaust and go into the cabin.
'Unfortunately, it will poison the pilot and any passenger.They will feel nauseous and drift off to sleep.
It affects people in different ways but there is no odour and it is deadly dangerous.'
Airfield owner Humphrey Penney revealed the craft had 'a lot of problems' and regular pilot David Henderson was 'unhappy with the maintenance.'
Mr Penney, who is also a licensed engineer, was asked to give a second opinion on the stricken Piper PA-46 Malibu in summer last year.
He spoke out for the first time following today's interim report published by the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch which showed that 28-year-old Argentinian striker Sala and his pilot David Ibbotson were exposed to deadly levels of the toxic gas even before the private plane plunged into the English Channel.
Speaking exclusively to MailOnline, Mr Penney said: 'What happened it all so sad and tragic.
We had deep concerns about the plane when we looked it at a year ago.
We nearly took it on but didn't because there were so many problems with it.'Mr Henderson, originally thought to be the pilot who perished on the plane, had taken it to Sandtoft Airport in Belton, North Lincolnshire, on behalf of the owner chartered accountant Faye Kelly.
Sandtoft boss Mr Penney, recalling his examination of the plane, said: 'Christ, this is awful!
A lot needs doing.'
He added: 'The hydraulic motor was a shambles and the flaps, autopilot and de-icing system weren't working and there were several other problems.
It was not in a fit state to be flown for a passenger but only in an emergency a short distance for maintenance and to get it fixed.'
The American craft registered to a Trust with a beneficial British owner, Ms Keely from Bonsall, Derbyshire - a pilot herself - had come to Mr Penney for a second expert opinion from Retford Gamston Airport in Gamston, Nottinghamshire, where it had been based long term.Mr Penney said: '
It was moved here for a relatively short period and we then sent it to another organisation for the recommended work to be done.
I can't comment on what work was later done.'
The plane was moved to nearby Sturgate Airfield in Gainsborough, Lincolnshire.
No one was available to comment today when approached by MailOnline.Mr Penney added:
'I cannot say if the maintenance was done thoroughly and properly and if it was all fixed but the plane would have had an annual inspection at the end of the year.
If all was good and dandy the plane should have flown safely.
'I know a very large bill for over £10,000 was presented to Faye.'Mr Penney, is now helping air investigators following the shocking crash on January 21 killing new £15 million Cardiff City striker Sala and married father Mr Ibbotson, 59, from Scunthorpe, Lincolnshire,
He told MailOnline he was 'a little surprised' by the bombshell report stating that the footballer had CO saturation levels of 58 per cent in his blood stream and the pilot was overcome by lethal fumes too, saying: 'I was not expecting that.
That is new information.
'He said that even the 'tiniest hole' in a plane's exhaust can cause a carbon monoxide leak, adding: 'One of the first things to go is the muffler, which goes over the exhaust system to warm the air coming into the craft.
Even the tiniest hole can cause carbon monoxide to pour through the exhaust and go into the cabin.
'Unfortunately, it will poison the pilot and any passenger.They will feel nauseous and drift off to sleep.
It affects people in different ways but there is no odour and it is deadly dangerous.'
That's typical of that aircraft type taxiing; everything shaking and vibrating. Nothing strange there when you're used to A320's.
You don't get "Heads Up" clues along the way.
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They can't even get the name of the aircraft owner right, so do you believe anything else you read?
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Lets face it CO from the exhaust would probably include all the other horrible stuff that stinks.
Even a miss placed crank case vent put fumes in the cockpit that made me feel ill.
That's my experience.
So why haven't the AAIB lifted the aircraft.
Surely they needed to examine the engine.
If i was a operator of that type, i would want some answers.
Why, is something being hidden.
I'm quite sure even amateur wreck divers could bring it up.
Even a miss placed crank case vent put fumes in the cockpit that made me feel ill.
That's my experience.
So why haven't the AAIB lifted the aircraft.
Surely they needed to examine the engine.
If i was a operator of that type, i would want some answers.
Why, is something being hidden.
I'm quite sure even amateur wreck divers could bring it up.
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I am currently doing the PPL, and very recently read in ground material about the possibility of fumes and/or CO entering the cockpit.
I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
Plenty to buy online
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So so here are my questions. If the pilot had already demonstrated a lack of recency and a willingness to break the rules, would they have a detector onboard? If they did have a detector would they know what to do when developing a problem at night while IMC and in an area with icing conditions?
Swiss cheese again? One event on its own is a problem. All added together makes for an accident.
Don't believe anything you read in the Daily Mail. Its not colloquially known as the "Daily Fail" for no reason. Absolute trash sensationalist "journalism" that has no interest whatsoever in facts. Why let facts get in the way of a good story!
As a ‘turbo prop’
They can't even get the name of the aircraft owner right, so do you believe anything else you read?
As a ‘turbo prop’
They can't even get the name of the aircraft owner right, so do you believe anything else you read?
The BBC has just described the aircraft as a ‘turboprop’ - perhaps we should ignore the BBC too...🙄
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Add fuel to the flames
Ok, just to stoke the fire...
Bloodstream CO levels in the news has caught many here off-guard. Remember, the official post mortem cause of death is unchanged- blunt force trauma.
In light of the CO reading, why has nobody speculated that this may have been a controlled descent/ controlled ditching?
Crash landing in water makes blunt force tramua- fact.
Crash landing causes fire- fact.
Fire makes CO- fact.
Could this have been an attempted ditching gone wrong... or right...
Hard landing causes injuries & possible unconsciousness, meanwhile fire consumes aircraft and CO enters bloodstream. Guy in harness vanishes, but other guy sprawled out in the back is trapped and found in plane.
The aircraft was in far better condition than I'd speculated prior to it's discovery- I'd initially assumed spatial disorientation (given the pilot's qualifications etc) leading to an uncontrollable crash, but in most instances that would have resulted in a large debris field and the plane in 1,000 pieces.... The plane was in tact.
Underneath all the sensationalist stories there are the facts that they are based upon.
Tongue in cheek... and not to cause offence to those involved.... maybe Ibbo is now sailing the Carribean on the back of his own life insurance...
I heard there's cheap cruises out there during hurricane season... but what i wonder is... what kind of self-respecting seaman would willingly take on the role of Captain during a hurricane? I'll let that sink in
Bloodstream CO levels in the news has caught many here off-guard. Remember, the official post mortem cause of death is unchanged- blunt force trauma.
In light of the CO reading, why has nobody speculated that this may have been a controlled descent/ controlled ditching?
Crash landing in water makes blunt force tramua- fact.
Crash landing causes fire- fact.
Fire makes CO- fact.
Could this have been an attempted ditching gone wrong... or right...
Hard landing causes injuries & possible unconsciousness, meanwhile fire consumes aircraft and CO enters bloodstream. Guy in harness vanishes, but other guy sprawled out in the back is trapped and found in plane.
The aircraft was in far better condition than I'd speculated prior to it's discovery- I'd initially assumed spatial disorientation (given the pilot's qualifications etc) leading to an uncontrollable crash, but in most instances that would have resulted in a large debris field and the plane in 1,000 pieces.... The plane was in tact.
Underneath all the sensationalist stories there are the facts that they are based upon.
Tongue in cheek... and not to cause offence to those involved.... maybe Ibbo is now sailing the Carribean on the back of his own life insurance...
I heard there's cheap cruises out there during hurricane season... but what i wonder is... what kind of self-respecting seaman would willingly take on the role of Captain during a hurricane? I'll let that sink in
Moderator
What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
The cracks in a muffler which can cause a CO leak into the heating system can be very small, and hard to detect. There are numerous Airworthiness Directives to check for this defect, but it's not full proof. If you're flying a non pressurized plane in a temperate climate, turning off cabin heat, and opening cabin air is a great way to reduce possible CO. If you have the air vent blowing at your face, it is unlikely that CO poisoning will be a risk.
Turbine airplanes can use bleed air for cabin heat, which assures no CO. But aircooled piston powered planes have little choice than to use some form of combustion to produce heat. Combustion = CO, no matter what. A muffler heat exchanger which is well maintained is a good system, but defects are common, and maintenance to find them involved. If I were a renter, I would buy a few of the black dot type CO detectors, and assure that one is near my pilot position during flight in a rental. If I were a club, I would have one digital CO detector, and ask pilots to take it randomly in club airplanes, and note the results. CO is a real hazard, and if it's going to get you, you will not know as it is happening to you, unless you have a detector.
And, let's keep the posts polite and on topic please....
