Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 28th Feb 2019, 19:18
  #1541 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 76
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flying Hours
Our thoughts on this discussion converge to focus on the pilot. Whether he was fit in every way to undertake this fateful flight.
Accepting he had accumulated the significant time of 3700hrs, and had done some aerial work such as para drops band glider tow, would it not be reasonable to suggest that his ambition may have been to work as a commercial pilot. That flying was more than a hobby or pass time. Why did he not at least get an instructor`s rating and take it one step further, why did he not get an IR to his PPL. Why did he not go for a CPL. Why were all these beyond his reach. Does it not also raise the question that he may have tried and maybe failed. Where do so many hours take one without a purpose. If one has very deep pockets, well all these do not come into question. But in this instance a gas fitter/engineer/plumber, with a poor financial score behind him, surely does not fall into that well heeled flying nut category. How much does 3700 hrs airtime cost. How did this unfortunate plumber could have afforded it, even if it was over a number of years. Flying has never been cheap. Unless you have a very deep pocket someone else must pay for the person sitting up at the front end of the machine. Who could those at the back be. I suppose that depends on how many good well heeled friends one may have.
Chronus is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 19:22
  #1542 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Chronus
Flying Hours
Our thoughts on this discussion converge to focus on the pilot. Whether he was fit in every way to undertake this fateful flight.
Accepting he had accumulated the significant time of 3700hrs, and had done some aerial work such as para drops band glider tow, would it not be reasonable to suggest that his ambition may have been to work as a commercial pilot. That flying was more than a hobby or pass time. Why did he not at least get an instructor`s rating and take it one step further, why did he not get an IR to his PPL. Why did he not go for a CPL. Why were all these beyond his reach. Does it not also raise the question that he may have tried and maybe failed. Where do so many hours take one without a purpose. If one has very deep pockets, well all these do not come into question. But in this instance a gas fitter/engineer/plumber, with a poor financial score behind him, surely does not fall into that well heeled flying nut category. How much does 3700 hrs airtime cost. How did this unfortunate plumber could have afforded it, even if it was over a number of years. Flying has never been cheap. Unless you have a very deep pocket someone else must pay for the person sitting up at the front end of the machine. Who could those at the back be. I suppose that depends on how many good well heeled friends one may have.
He was colourblind and therefore never able to get a CPL/IR. he loved to fly but could not afford it hence getting into parachute dropping and ultimately the arrangement that led to his demise.

Last edited by S-Works; 28th Feb 2019 at 19:40.
S-Works is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 19:26
  #1543 (permalink)  
Aso
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Belgium
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is how Mr Henderson sells his business on Linkedin... My bold and underline...

Aviation Facilitator.

I have been operating as a ferry pilot for over 2 decades - SEP, MEP, SET and now run my own aviation consultancy.

Whether you are looking to
- significantly reduce your time spent travelling for business or leisure, while accessing remote/hard to reach locations
- recieve advice on the management of your own craft
- or acquire/purchase an aircraft/helicopter
I will be able to provide a number of highly cost efficient solutions
If you have a requirement to use General Aviation for any purpose, anywhere in the world, I can probably assist.
On top of this: Mr McKay is known in the industry to be ONLY price oriented when booking aircraft...
Aso is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 19:41
  #1544 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 76
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by S-Works


He was colourblind and therefore never able to get a CPL/IR. I loved to fly but could not afford it hence getting into parachute dropping and ultimately the arrangement that led to his demise.

So does that not mean he was a victim of love. The most unfortunate that such love also took another victim who did not share his love. Is it not for good reason that a person who has the misfortune of suffering with such disability as colour blindness is barred from holding a professional licence. But there again as the old proverb goes, love has no boundaries.
Chronus is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 19:51
  #1545 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,775
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
"He had a Second Class medical with the only restriction being 'Must have available glasses for near vision.'
and he had a U.K. licence Class 2 medical with a restriction on specifically preventing flight at night"
I find this strange. His current medical was an EASA Class 2. The restrictions on it were what matter. It is surprising that colour blindness restrictions were lifted, but apparently they were. The UK licence medical would have been in the past, and replaced by the EASA one when it expired.
(I have flown on a PPL since 1987. I got a JAR number in 2006. I got both an EASA and a UK National PPL in 2018. I have always had a standard PPL medical - was it called Class 2 in 1987? My original FAA 61.75 had a night restriction, although I had a Night Rating, but that restriction was removed later.)
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 20:54
  #1546 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
"He had a Second Class medical with the only restriction being 'Must have available glasses for near vision.'
and he had a U.K. licence Class 2 medical with a restriction on specifically preventing flight at nigh"
I find this strange. His current medical was an EASA Class 2. The restrictions on it were what matter. It is surprising that colour blindness restrictions were lifted, but apparently they were. The UK licence medical would have been in the past, and replaced by the EASA one when it expired.
(I have flown on a PPL since 1987. I got a JAR number in 2006. I got both an EASA and a UK National PPL in 2018. I have always had a standard PPL medical - was it called Class 2 in 1987? My original FAA 61.75 had a night restriction, although I had a Night Rating, but that restriction was removed later.)
What makes you think the restrictions were lifted? His EASA medical had a no night flying restriction on it.
S-Works is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 21:21
  #1547 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From the Daily Heil

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...al-flight.html
robin is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2019, 21:37
  #1548 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The player was always intending to return in the evening according to these whatsapp's
vanHorck is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 07:41
  #1549 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes , if those screenshots are correct it is quite damaging as indeed the return flight was from the beginning planned to be in the evening ( so at least partly at night) and Sala apparently paid for it as the person on the other end of the phone asked Sala if he arranged the price [with Willis Mc Kay] , , and Sala replied : yes , it is good .
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 10:37
  #1550 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 61
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
The colour blindness issue is a red herring.
Historically, barring some flying privileges to colour blind people had surfaced for fear that such people would be unable to distinguish the different flare signals sent by a tower in the event of a radio-communication failure or unable to distinguish the left and right position lights of a conflicting traffic. Most colour blind people can perfectly distinguish the 2 position lights but fail the Ishihara test.

The real issues that have a causal relationship with this accident are:
- was the pilot trained and current for flying in IMC at night ?
- why wasn't a commercial pilot at the controls of that plane, if it is confirmed that the actual conditions of the flight match private carriage operation as defined under FAR 91.501(b)(4).
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 10:45
  #1551 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Luc Lion
The colour blindness issue is a red herring.
You may even believe that, I don't.
ChickenHouse is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 10:59
  #1552 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Luc Lion
The colour blindness issue is a red herring.
Historically, barring some flying privileges to colour blind people had surfaced for fear that such people would be unable to distinguish the different flare signals sent by a tower in the event of a radio-communication failure or unable to distinguish the left and right position lights of a conflicting traffic. Most colour blind people can perfectly distinguish the 2 position lights but fail the Ishihara test.

The real issues that have a causal relationship with this accident are:
- was the pilot trained and current for flying in IMC at night ?
- why wasn't a commercial pilot at the controls of that plane, if it is confirmed that the actual conditions of the flight match private carriage operation as defined under FAR 91.501(b)(4).
He was colourblind and had a specific licence restriction to Day Time Flying ONLY. He had NEVER been trained to fly out night due to this restriction. This could not be over ridden on his 61.75 certificate. So regardless of any of the other issues around the flight, the fact that it was flown at night made it illegal.......
S-Works is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 11:11
  #1553 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The colourblind isn’t a red herring. One presumes he knew of the limitation and he clearly ignored it. To me that is indicative of someone who chooses not to completely comply with the regulations. One could offer a similar argument about taking a brown-envelop payment - no harm, not the cause etc. Fine, tell that one to the insurance companies.
Cows getting bigger is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 11:13
  #1554 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 61
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
S-Works, I believe you are right.
But it doesn't make a difference if the flight was illegal for one reason or for 2, 3 or 5 reasons.
To me, as the flight was organised in the first place, it should have been manned with a CPL (IR) pilot.
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 11:32
  #1555 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Nantes
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Sala apparently paid for it as the person on the other end of the phone asked Sala if he arranged the price [with Willis Mc Kay] , , and Sala replied : yes , it is good .
"it is good" doesn't mean he had something to pay. Other text messages (with Jack McKay) say that he would have nothing to pay, only help him score a few goals.
FRIDAY JANUARY 18

7:43pm - Jack McKay: "My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you, so you can get to training on Tuesday."

7:51pm - Emiliano Sala: "Ah that is great. I was just in the middle of checking if there are some flights to get to Nantes tomorrow."

7:56pm - McKay: "He said he could organise a plane that would go direct to Nantes."

7:56pm - Sala: "How much will it cost?"

7:56pm - McKay: "Nothing. He said if you help me to score goals it's nothing."

7:59pm - Sala: "Hahaha with pleasure."

8:00pm: "We are going to score lots of goals."

8:01pm: "I want to leave tomorrow for Nantes at around 11am and come back on Monday night around 9pm to Cardiff if that is possible."

8:05pm - McKay: "Good. I'll send a message when that's sorted."

Last edited by deltafox44; 1st Mar 2019 at 11:44.
deltafox44 is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 11:49
  #1556 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,953
Received 10 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by S-Works
He was colourblind and had a specific licence restriction to Day Time Flying ONLY. He had NEVER been trained to fly out night due to this restriction. This could not be over ridden on his 61.75 certificate. So regardless of any of the other issues around the flight, the fact that it was flown at night made it illegal.......
I am still amazed you can get an unrestricted night rating with only a few hours training in the local area and then fly over the sea and mountains without having visual reference to the ground.
Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 13:10
  #1557 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 1,576
Received 123 Likes on 60 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn


I am still amazed you can get an unrestricted night rating with only a few hours training in the local area and then fly over the sea and mountains without having visual reference to the ground.
But withe a night rating you are still required to have visual reference with the ground. If there are no lights (ie over the sea) and no horizon or sky references then you can be definition only be flying by sole reference to instruments which specifically requires an IR or IMC rating. Under those conditions your rating to fly VMC at night is negated by there being no VMC present.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 13:26
  #1558 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Luc Lion
The real issues that have a causal relationship with this accident are:
- was the pilot trained and current for flying in IMC at night ?
- why wasn't a commercial pilot at the controls of that plane, if it is confirmed that the actual conditions of the flight match private carriage operation as defined under FAR 91.501(b)(4).

To me, as the flight was organised in the first place, it should have been manned with a CPL (IR) pilot.
He was NOT rated to fly an N reg either IMC or at night. Check the FAA airman database yourself. He held an FAA private without Instrument Rating. Even if there turned out to be UK IR(r) or IMC/Night Rating that did not allow him to fly at night outside the UK.

Single pistons are NOT permitted to carry out commercial air transport at night anyway. So I do not see the logic that "it should have been manned with a CPL because it was organised in the first place". And "if it is confirmed that the actual conditions of the flight match private carriage operation" (unlikely) an appropriately rated private pilot would be completely legitimate.
oggers is online now  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 14:04
  #1559 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 61
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Oggers,
I am talking about FAR 91.501(b)(4) where the operating costs are borne by the operator "for his personal transportation, or the transportation of his guests when no charge, assessment, or fee is made for the transportation". That's private carriage operation.

Either the operator flies himself the aircraft, possibly with a PPL, or he hires a commercial pilot for flying his plane.
I understand that FAR 61.113 forbids any other combination when the plane carries the guests of the operator.
Thus, if Mr McKay had rented that plane and, separately, hired a commercial pilot for flying his guest, the flight would have fit FAA Part 91 under FAR 91.501(b)(4).
Of course, the pilot must NOT be the person renting the plane.

Note: about "was the pilot trained and current for flying in IMC at night ?", I was writing about ability, not legality.

Last edited by Luc Lion; 1st Mar 2019 at 14:18.
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2019, 15:15
  #1560 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Nantes
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
But withe a night rating you are still required to have visual reference with the ground. If there are no lights (ie over the sea) and no horizon or sky references then you can be definition only be flying by sole reference to instruments which specifically requires an IR or IMC rating. Under those conditions your rating to fly VMC at night is negated by there being no VMC present.
When VFR on top you cannot see the ground either. And VMC only means you will be able to see and avoid other aircraft by their lights, it does not require you see any light of the ground. When flying at night, lights (stars or from the ground) can be a source of spatial disorientation and you should only rely on your instruments. That's why artificial horizon is compulsory for night VFR, isn't it ?
deltafox44 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.