Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

[VerdunLuck]

Originally Posted by meleagertoo

Our Mr Ibbotson is beginning to look like a complete cowboy with no scruples and not a shred of interest in complying with any law or regulation that he finds inconvenient.

To be fair (ish), I can see how he got himself into this. He probably agreed to do the flight expecting it to be a nice little daylight flight there and back. The sun was probably shining when he was asked and it all sounded fine. From then on it probably went downhill in stages until it was completely beyond his ability or experience. His fault lay in not realising when it was beyond him and/or not saying NO. A pressurising factor could well be that (and I am assuming that he was paying part of the cost) he might end up paying a lot his money for his decision.

A further point that I cannot quite get my head around is the idea that he got a PPL in 2014 (I have been told) and somehow accumulated 3700 hours dropping parachutists. That is over 900 hours a year; hard work in any environment and surely impossible parra dropping (and when did he do his pipe fitting job?). It took me 14 years to get to that number of hours which including at least 6 years in full time flying jobs. Perhaps a zero got added at some point?

[A and C]

The safety pilot issue is not well understood as people don’t understand that you can be complying with IFR but be VMC, so you can fly an ILS in visual conditions while complying with IFR and under radar control and not need a safety pilot.

If you are flying VFR under VMC to practice an ILS then you are respondable for your own separation from another aircraft so you need a competent observer ( NOTE NOT a pilot ) to ensure you can maintain seperation from other aircraft.

Ther key to understanding this is knowing the difference between RULES and CONDITIONS.

[oggers]

By implication, then, as I see it there is nothing to stop anyone, with ATC permission, flying an ILS in VMC without a safety pilot as long as they can maintain a lookout and take avoiding action if necessary.

Yes agreed.

[HolyMoley]

By ‘moot’ I mean ‘a matter for discussion or debate’. I did not say ‘questionable’ as that would imply an opinion I do not necessarily hold.
(I spotted the difference. If you went into LUX (class D) on an IFR clearance you would be guaranteed separation from other IFR traffic, whereas on a VFR clearance you would not, so the amount of ‘see and avoid’ needed is a function of the ratio of VFR to IFR in the zone).

[2Donkeys]

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn

Which of course means despite all his VFR time his solo night flying experience would have been minimal.

If the pilot who passed him the job was aware of Dibbo’s limitations then surely he must shoulder some legal responsibility?

Not really. We've all had one principle beaten into us since the earliest days of air law. The FAA version of that principle is:

]§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft

[oggers]

Originally Posted by HolyMoley

(I spotted the difference. If you went into LUX (class D) on an IFR clearance you would be guaranteed separation from other IFR traffic, whereas on a VFR clearance you would not, so the amount of ‘see and avoid’ needed is a function of the ratio of VFR to IFR in the zone).

Precisely that. No small difference.

[Luc Lion]

A & C, theoretically you are right ; separation responsibilities will be different depending on whether you fly the ILS under VFR or IFR rules.
Practically, there is no difference once you are established on the ILS.

Both Nantes and Luxembourg are class D airspaces.
Being VFR or IFR on the ILS, you are responsible of your separation from other VFR traffics and you will receive traffic information from the controller.
Being IFR, the controller will ensure separation from other IFR traffics.
Being VFR, you need to care for separation from preceding IFR traffic on the glide and you have priority over subsequent traffic that you cannot see in your back.
Practically, the controller will treat you as IFR and ensure separation with subsequent IFR traffic to avoid unnecessary missed approaches.

Just for the anecdote, I remember having to deviate significantly from assigned altitude in a class D holding because of an NVFR traffic. It was coming from my left but I have only 1 life. IFR pilots still need to look outside, even in a controlled airspace at night.

[S-Works]

Originally Posted by VerdunLuck

To be fair (ish), I can see how he got himself into this. He probably agreed to do the flight expecting it to be a nice little daylight flight there and back. The sun was probably shining when he was asked and it all sounded fine. From then on it probably went downhill in stages until it was completely beyond his ability or experience. His fault lay in not realising when it was beyond him and/or not saying NO. A pressurising factor could well be that (and I am assuming that he was paying part of the cost) he might end up paying a lot his money for his decision.

A further point that I cannot quite get my head around is the idea that he got a PPL in 2014 (I have been told) and somehow accumulated 3700 hours dropping parachutists. That is over 900 hours a year; hard work in any environment and surely impossible parra dropping (and when did he do his pipe fitting job?). It took me 14 years to get to that number of hours which including at least 6 years in full time flying jobs. Perhaps a zero got added at some point?

He held a PPL for many years. 2014 was when his JAR licence expired and he converted to an EASA one. It was also around that time that he got a 61.75 based on his UK PPL.

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by VerdunLuck

.

A further point that I cannot quite get my head around is the idea that he got a PPL in 2014 (I have been told) and somehow accumulated 3700 hours dropping parachutists. That is over 900 hours a year; hard work in any environment and surely impossible parra dropping (and when did he do his pipe fitting job?). ..... Perhaps a zero got added at some point?

I cannot imagine someone giving the keys of a Malibu to a 59 years old having made his PPL 5 years ago with only 370 hours to make an international flight across the channel.. I think if there is a typo somewhere is on the PPL date ..

and as to the discussion on his Night qualification ,something I do not get, on a PPL that qualification is written ( printed) on the EASA licence , so the CAA must have the entry on their data base. If as suggested here he did not have it, then his flight was from the start operated unlawfully and most probably the insurance will not cover the aircraft as well.

[PastTense]

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn

I have read newspaper reports that suggest the agent contacted David Henderson but can you prove he in turn assigned David Ibbotson?

Remember:

McKay, who helped broker Sala’s £15 million transfer to Cardiff City from Nantes, confirmed last month he organised the flight in question and that his usual pilot, Dave Henderson, had paid the landing fees and fuel.

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/sport/prem...ala/ar-BBU7AMf

How do you explain that other than McKay contracted the job to Henderson, and Henderson sub-contracted the flying to Ibbotson?

[Mike Flynn]

The definition of corporate manslaughter is quite clear.

Following R v. Prentice, a breach of duty amounts to 'gross negligence' when there is indifference to an obvious risk of injury to health; actual foresight of the risk coupled with the determination nevertheless to run it; appreciation of the risk coupled with an intention to avoid it but also coupled with such a high degree of negligence in the attempted avoidance as the jury consider justifies conviction, and inattention or failure to advert to a serious risk which goes "beyond inadvertence" in respect of an obvious and important matter which the defendant's duty demanded he should address.

[jumpseater]

The BBC news has just been running an interview with Mckay Senior re the organisation of the flight. Doesn’t appear to be online yet to link to.

Watching it I get the impression the ‘legal’ heat is turned up to eleven.

[Alanwsg]

Here it is ....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47406109

[runway30]

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn

The definition of corporate manslaughter is quite clear.

There is no evidence that any companies are involved in this chain of events.

[Whipstall]

Whilst it always seemed highly unlikely I guess this is the final nail in the coffin of any cost-sharing argument.

[jumpseater]

Originally Posted by runway30

There is no evidence that any companies are involved in this chain of events.

Assuming the football agent is a UK based or registered company, even as a sole trader, I would have thought that may put them in the liability crosshairs for corporate responsibilities.

edit: It also occurs that the HSE may get involved. If it’s a regular company practice to use ‘unlicensed’ transport facilities for staff/customer transport and an accident occurs, a UK company could certainly face prosecution from the HSE.

[runway30]

However, Willie McKay said it was not a cost-sharing agreement as "Emi wasn't paying anything" and that he was going to pay "whatever Dave [Henderson] was going to charge".

That’s really throwing Dave Henderson under the bus.

"I've been told on good authority he was a very good pilot so for people to vilify the pilot after a man's death is a disgrace. I don't hold anyone responsible because it's just a tragic accident."

If you pilot an aircraft under conditions for which you are not qualified that is not an accident, it is negligence however much lipstick you try to put on the pig.

[Arkroyal]

Pity the Oscars were last week!

McKay senior and junior would be great contenders.

Having admitted and continuing to admit he arranged the flight, he now blames Cardiff City for letting him do it! I’m stunned.

[vanHorck]

So McKay says it was not a cost sharing flight implying it was commercial. With a PPL at the wheel. Whoever hired Mr Ibbotson (Mr Henderson?) will have a lot to answer for.

[S-Works]

Originally Posted by Dr Jekyll

It's academic, but 370 hours doesn't seem particularly unreasonable either for a cross channel flight or a complex piston single.

He had nearly 4000hrs and had held a PPL for a very long time.......