Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
So far I have read nowhere that those flights were performed on cost sharing basis. In one of the interviews further up the page the manager (Mr.McKay) said that he paid for them. Alone. There is nothing illegal about that. Lots and lots of corporate flying is done this way: The company owns or rents a plane and either one of it's employees with a license or a contracted pilot flies it. The important thing is that no one must be invoiced for that flight.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So far I have read nowhere that those flights were performed on cost sharing basis. In one of the interviews further up the page the manager (Mr.McKay) said that he paid for them. Alone. There is nothing illegal about that. Lots and lots of corporate flying is done this way: The company owns or rents a plane and either one of it's employees with a license or a contracted pilot flies it. The important thing is that no one must be invoiced for that flight.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
That would be Mr. McKay. It does not matter if he phones the parties involved (the owner of the plane and the pilot who flies it) himself or delegates those calls to his secretary, Mr. Henderson or Donald Duck. If Mr. Henderson, through his connections, gets a better price for the plane it would indeed be a wise move to let him do the talking. As long as the invoice for the plane is paid by him (McKay) as well as the fee for the pilot (in case he has a commercial license). The ultimate responsinbility to perform the flight within the legal frame rests with the pilot in command. I have flown like that for a large company for years. Their lawyer and their insurance people were happy with it. Countless ramp inspectors found nothing wrong with it.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How it used to be done
My experience has largely UK Military and police flying, I did for a period fly corporate out of a small London airfield. The company I worked for held an AOC though we were based side by side with many other aviation enterprises and shared the airfield cafe with the whole spectrum of pilot's and visitors/clients etc.
The basis of our businesses was to offer a corporate service of providing aircraft and crew for charters, most business would come via a broker, these brokers would receive a request from a client and then phone around the companies to find the best fit and lowest cost. It often became a back and forth negotiation with our ops staff. We pilot's would be allocated the task the day before unless it was a rush job.
The client would often have no idea who or what would be flying them until they arrived at the agreed pick up point. They certainly would have no idea of the pilots qualifications or the capabilities of the pilot or the aircraft.
It often turned out that the broker had promised things to the client to seal the deal that left we pilot's spinning plates on the day, or having to explain the real world to the client in an uncomfortable conversation.
It was also the case that one pilot willing to bend the rules or give in to the client could set a dangerous precedent for those that followed.
In summary, I'd be looking at the broker first and foremost and work out in both directions from there.
The basis of our businesses was to offer a corporate service of providing aircraft and crew for charters, most business would come via a broker, these brokers would receive a request from a client and then phone around the companies to find the best fit and lowest cost. It often became a back and forth negotiation with our ops staff. We pilot's would be allocated the task the day before unless it was a rush job.
The client would often have no idea who or what would be flying them until they arrived at the agreed pick up point. They certainly would have no idea of the pilots qualifications or the capabilities of the pilot or the aircraft.
It often turned out that the broker had promised things to the client to seal the deal that left we pilot's spinning plates on the day, or having to explain the real world to the client in an uncomfortable conversation.
It was also the case that one pilot willing to bend the rules or give in to the client could set a dangerous precedent for those that followed.
In summary, I'd be looking at the broker first and foremost and work out in both directions from there.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That would be Mr. McKay. It does not matter if he phones the parties involved (the owner of the plane and the pilot who flies it) himself or delegates those calls to his secretary, Mr. Henderson or Donald Duck. If Mr. Henderson, through his connections, gets a better price for the plane it would indeed be a wise move to let him do the talking. As long as the invoice for the plane is paid by him (McKay) as well as the fee for the pilot (in case he has a commercial license). The ultimate responsinbility to perform the flight within the legal frame rests with the pilot in command. I have flown like that for a large company for years. Their lawyer and their insurance people were happy with it. Countless ramp inspectors found nothing wrong with it.
I have always taken the view that Mckay could have said that he was providing his corporate aircraft for free. However his public statements don't describe that, they describe a charter provided by Henderson.
Now he may be saying one thing in public and another to the investigators. We will have to wait and see.
Art, what you've described is the work of a proper Charter Broker who one hopes wouldn't consider using a non AOC operator for their clients.
That is a world apart from an ex bookie gotten greedy...
I'm sure the sheer amount of flights this guy has organised will spark the close interest of the CAA.
That is a world apart from an ex bookie gotten greedy...
I'm sure the sheer amount of flights this guy has organised will spark the close interest of the CAA.
The company you work for, even though they may have delegated authority to someone else, will say that they decided what aircraft to hire and what pilot to hire. They have also informed the insurers as to how the aircraft is being operated.
I have always taken the view that Mckay could have said that he was providing his corporate aircraft for free. However his public statements don't describe that, they describe a charter provided by Henderson.
Now he may be saying one thing in public and another to the investigators. We will have to wait and see.
I have always taken the view that Mckay could have said that he was providing his corporate aircraft for free. However his public statements don't describe that, they describe a charter provided by Henderson.
Now he may be saying one thing in public and another to the investigators. We will have to wait and see.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Not necessarily. In a typical "corporate flying department" where a company owns (or has access to) one or more planes and employs (or contracts) one or more pilots it is the company that has operational control. It decides on the flying dates, which plane to use for what route and which pilot to assign to each flight. Under EASA part NCC an ops manual is required for that kind of flying (which would include the Eclipse of which was written above) but not a piston Malibu. Anyway the latter was "N" registered and therefore outside EASA regulations.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I knew this would be controversial and it was deliberately so. When an aircraft is being hired out to a different company every day does the PIC replicate those functions that would normally be provided by a corporate flight department? If the PIC is the only one undertaking those functions for multiple companies, is he not operating an air carrier without an AOC?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I would say no. I could get a phone call from a company that has/rents a plane telling me their regular pilot called in sick and asking me if I would fly their plane tomorrow. That does not make me an air carrier. Their plane, their passengers, their destination. I only handle the conrtrols.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say no. I could get a phone call from a company that has/rents a plane telling me their regular pilot called in sick and asking me if I would fly their plane tomorrow. That does not make me an air carrier. Their plane, their passengers, their destination. I only handle the conrtrols.
Mike. I struggle to understand which aspect of this unfortunate affair has anything to do with the letter painted on the side of the aircraft. Perhaps you could clarify.
The CAA is required to have oversight of all flying occurring in the UK FIR regardless of the registry of the aircraft concerned. If there is an issue with questionable charters, the issue is a lack of oversight in general, unless you are suggesting that the CAA somehow watches G reg ops like a hawk and ignores the N reg ops.
There are, in my view, two reasons why there is a proliferation of N reg in Europe, neither (directly) associated with cost.
1. The FAA flight crew licensing regime has been rock steady whilst we in the Uk have watched a dogs dinner unfold as we’ve moved from CAA to JAA to EASA to whatever next.
2. The FAA has historically been far faster to approve new technologies, making the register far more attractive to those operating more advanced aircraft.
The accident rate on the N reg fleet globally is far better than the G reg fleet (so far as these things can be compared) and the FAA has not been slow to act when circumstances require.
In situations like this, it is easy to point at the registry and claim that it has something to do with the events concerned. Right now, I see no link. Tell me why I am wrong.
The Malibu was registered to a mailing address in Norfolk , a county where I have owned property for over 30 years. Earsham Hall is home to a number of small business’s all far removed from US aviation.Until recently I never knew it was a postbox for Delaware registration of aircraft.
Clearly as is the case with many N registered aircraft there is a desire on the part of the beneficiaries to hide their identity.
Clearly there is legislation that prevents me from driving a US registered car in the UK (members of the US airforce excepted) so why is an aircraft any different?
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 20th Feb 2019 at 14:12.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Even then the PIC might not automatically become an air carrier. If in my last example a company tells me that the plane they usually use is unavailable, and if I perhaps could find them a different plane and maybe fly that myself then they still have full control. Their flying date and time, their destination, their passengers, all costs paid by them, their final decision on plane and pilot.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was this a charter?
These are the statements that convinced me that this was a charter and not the use of corporate aircraft.
"With regards to the booking of the flight we contacted Mr David Henderson, who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions," McKay said.
McKay added: "We had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and we also wish to make clear again we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on."
"With regards to the booking of the flight we contacted Mr David Henderson, who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions," McKay said.
McKay added: "We had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and we also wish to make clear again we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on."
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
If it really was that way then indeed it was more charter than corporate flying... Mr. Henderson will probably tell the exact opposite. Some judgde or jury will have to decide who to believe.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More McKay quotes
"We take our plane get clubs in it - people who can decide, not the local scouts For different reasons - age, style of play, playing in League 2 and other issues, we only have an offer from Cardiff City – newly-promoted with a manager who fell in love with you first of all from your footage online."
"Cardiff can have a jet for you tonight or tomorrow to pick you and any other people you want to bring with you." I think subsequent statements were that these were McKay paid flights
Both from McKay email to Sala reproduced here in Daily Mail Online Article 18-19/02 (can't post URL)
"Cardiff can have a jet for you tonight or tomorrow to pick you and any other people you want to bring with you." I think subsequent statements were that these were McKay paid flights
Both from McKay email to Sala reproduced here in Daily Mail Online Article 18-19/02 (can't post URL)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I knew this would be controversial and it was deliberately so. When an aircraft is being hired out to a different company every day does the PIC replicate those functions that would normally be provided by a corporate flight department? If the PIC is the only one undertaking those functions for multiple companies, is he not operating an air carrier without an AOC?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 76
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This assurance looks to be coming from an authoritative source, and if that is the case then it is the best the news so far. I wish they would go public with it and show us all they are there to look after the safety of all who travel by air.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why should they publish information on social media? They will investigate, produce a case and prosecute in accordance with law not the demands of the internet mob.........