Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

[lilflyboy262...2]

As per the regulations found on the flissair website.

Complex aircraft cannot be used on cost sharing flights.
Cost sharing may only be used up to a maximum of 6 people.

[runway30]

I have found N264DB on an enthusiasts list at Antwerp on December 8th, 2015. Operator is given as Cool Flourish Ltd.

[korrol]

MALIBU OWNERS NAMED

The WalesOnLine website (owned by Trinity Mirror Group Newspapers) has revealed more information about the ownership of the Piper Malibu. The news source says :-
"Investigators probing the plane crash that killed Cardiff City footballer Emiliano Sala are fully aware of who actually owned the aircraft.The ownership of the Piper Malibu N264DB plane has been the source of much speculation and mystery since it crashed into the English Channel on the night of January 21.

Now, Southern Aircraft Consultancy Inc, a British-based Trustee firm who registered the aircraft with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in the USA, have issued a detailed statement for the first time.

The Norfolk-based company offers non-US citizens the ability to legally register their aircraft in the US. It then holds the plane in trust for the real owner, and promises never to pass on information about the owners to the public. The name of the actual owners of the Piper Malibu are not available on the FAA website.Until now, Southern Aircraft have refused to speak out in detail. But, in a statement to WalesOnline, they revealed more about the role they perform and said they had given details of the real owners to the Air Accident Investigation Branch. The issue of ownership may be central to establishing who is liable for the costs Cardiff City could yet have to bear amid their dispute over the £15m transfer fee with Nantes . WalesOnline understands the club are demanding answers to this question before deciding how to proceed.

A spokesperson for Southern Aircraft Consultancy said:-

: "Recent press reports have stated that ownership information has been removed from the FAA records, in order to occlude ownership details. We can categorically state that this is incorrect. As a business, we would never even consider doing this, even if it were requested by a client (which it has not been, in this case). No records or details have been removed from anywhere in relation to this aircraft. In fact, it is not possible to remove any such documentation from the FAA records, even if the aircraft owners had requested it (which they have not). "As an organisation, we do not exist to 'hide' aircraft ownership details. We exist simply to assist people with registering their aircraft on the FAA register. The comprehensive ownership details of aircraft registered in Trust - including details of any and all previous ownership transfers whilst on the FAA register - are part of the formal aircraft record at the FAA, as with any other aircraft registration (whether registered by a Trustee or not). To reiterate, Southern Aircraft Consultancy are the Trustee only for the aircraft, which is owned and operated by another party. Said party is responsible for the day to day operation of the aircraft as well as its maintenance. By law, as with any other company who holds client details, we cannot simply release those details to anyone that asks for them. We can only release them to those who have a legal right to it (for example, the AAIB, with whom we have been liaising regularly and to whom we provided all of the information that we hold on the aircraft and the owners immediately after being notified that it was missing).It would be inappropriate to comment further at this point, but again we extend our condolences to the families of those involved in the accident."

[suninmyeyes]

Coincidentally in the March edition of Pilot magazine the ILAFT column tells the story of a Piper Malibu flight from Rotterdam to the UK with a commercial pilot in the left seat and an experienced instrument rated pilot with 1,500 hours in the right hand seat. Having descended into the UK they levelled off at 2,400 feet in IMC conditions using the autopilot but forgot to add power and very nearly stalled. The non-professional pilot in the right hand seat realised and added power a few knots above flap up stall speed having suddenly noticed the ASI unwinding rapidly. That is always a trap when descending and using an autopilot for heading and altitude capture but manual throttle. Because the autopilot is engaged it can give a false sense that all is under control.

There are several possibilities for what happened to Sala’s plane but the above error is certainly a possible candidate aided by ice distraction and night IMC.

[GotTheTshirt]

Regarding the "registration"of the aircraft then there is another situation that I have not seen commented on.
US ownership of anything is considered property tax which varies from State to State and is usually an annual tax and can be quite expensive.
There are a few states that do not have property tax, Delaware and Nevada used be the two that I was familiar with.
You will find that the registered US address for companies that provide this registration "facility" are registered in one of these states.

[runway30]

So what are the directors of the owner/operator going to say? It could be either:

1) They are operating illegal public transport for which they were paid by Willie Mckay or
2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates or
3) They hire the aircraft to David Henderson and they have no idea who he then asks to pilot it

I don't see that there are any other possibilities.

[2Donkeys]

Originally Posted by GotTheTshirt

Regarding the "registration"of the aircraft then there is another situation that I have not seen commented on.
US ownership of anything is considered property tax which varies from State to State and is usually an annual tax and can be quite expensive.
There are a few states that do not have property tax, Delaware and Nevada used be the two that I was familiar with.
You will find that the registered US address for companies that provide this registration "facility" are registered in one of these states.

True but totally irrelevant in this case since this aircraft is owned in Trust, the address of which is in the UK. Under such arrangements, it is sufficient that the Trustee(s) are US persons.

[ShyTorque]

2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates

There probably aren't many charity organisations flying multi-million pound footballers about.....

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by suninmyeyes

Coincidentally in the March edition of Pilot magazine the ILAFT column tells the story of a Piper Malibu flight from Rotterdam to the UK with a commercial pilot in the left seat and an experienced instrument rated pilot with 1,500 hours in the right hand seat. Having descended into the UK they levelled off at 2,400 feet in IMC conditions using the autopilot but forgot to add power and very nearly stalled. The non-professional pilot in the right hand seat realised and added power a few knots above flap up stall speed having suddenly noticed the ASI unwinding rapidly. That is always a trap when descending and using an autopilot for heading and altitude capture but manual throttle. Because the autopilot is engaged it can give a false sense that all is under control.

There are several possibilities for what happened to Sala’s plane but the above error is certainly a possible candidate aided by ice distraction and night IMC.

Thanks for that one , a probability yes, as having read that the probable cause of death of Sala was multiples injuries, it does not sound like it was a controlled smooth sea ditching.
Another one is just severe ice accumulation slowly but surely pushing the aircraft down despite all de-icing devices on and full power . A good description of this is the famous book of E.K Gann " Island in the sky".

[red9]

Originally Posted by runway30

So what are the directors of the owner/operator going to say? It could be either:

1) They are operating illegal public transport for which they were paid by Willie Mckay or
2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates or
3) They hire the aircraft to David Henderson and they have no idea who he then asks to pilot it

I don't see that there are any other possibilities.

almost probably (3)

[Good Business Sense]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

Another one is just severe ice accumulation slowly but surely pushing the aircraft down despite all de-icing devices on and full power . A good description of this is the famous book of E.K Gann " Island in the sky".

It's scary, very scary - in my younger days I declared two Maydays and one Pan as above in piston and turbo prop twins - full power, speed coming back and still with a ROD on. Turned over the sea - only solution is to get above 0C and even then it, at +1C/+2C, takes forever to come off.

[PastTense]

Originally Posted by runway30

So what are the directors of the owner/operator going to say? It could be either:

1) They are operating illegal public transport for which they were paid by Willie Mckay or
2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates or
3) They hire the aircraft to David Henderson and they have no idea who he then asks to pilot it

I don't see that there are any other possibilities.

Well it could just be David Henderson or it could be to a number of different companies besides David Henderson's business or it could be they mostly use the airplane themselves and occasionally rent it out.

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

Originally Posted by runway30

I have all along maintained that the Ibbotson family should be treated with respect and given our condolences for their loss. I also respect their wish to defend Dave Ibbotson, I hope all our families would do the same for us. However, I think this media appearance was very ill advised.

Indeed so. However, I imagine that right now, they need the money...

[OwnNav]

An echo of the fatal Buddy Holly flight

You Tube

[JFW]

I would guess the police will need to await the Coroners verdict before they may consider investigations for any criminal acts which may have led to the deaths of the occupants. The coroner in adjourning the hearing may well have decided to wait for the AAIB report.

I think it is more likely that the Coroner will wait for the police report, to have all available evidence before him. The purpose of the inquest is not to apportion blame, indeed the rules specifically state that no civil or criminal liability can be specified against any named individual.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by JFW

I think it is more likely that the Coroner will wait for the police report, to have all available evidence before him. The purpose of the inquest is not to apportion blame, indeed the rules specifically state that no civil or criminal liability can be specified against any named individual.

Indeed so.

From a previous post:

Senior acting coroner Brendan Allen said that investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.

[skyrangerpro]

Originally Posted by JFW

I think it is more likely that the Coroner will wait for the police report, to have all available evidence before him. The purpose of the inquest is not to apportion blame, indeed the rules specifically state that no civil or criminal liability can be specified against any named individual.

Right. He will seek to ascertain

1. Who
2. When
3. Where
4. How

but not why. He has very wide ranging powers too.

[Cambridge172]

Surely this function on a well known private 'flight sharing' website is fundamentally illegal and should be removed?

[what next]

Originally Posted by Cambridge172

Surely this function on a well known private 'flight sharing' website is fundamentally illegal and should be removed?

Although I am not the biggest fan of flight sharing sites (and would never have allowed my son to use such a service while I still had the power to forbid anything to him) this is not illegal in Europe as long as European registered aircraft are used. And as long as the cost is shared between all occupants, including the pilot, and the latter does not receive any kind of remuneration. And some more conditions are met most of which have been listed on this thread several times already.

(See for example page 4 of this document from EASA: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...AIR_OPS_EN.pdf)

[Good Business Sense]

Originally Posted by what next

Although I am not the biggest fan of flight sharing sites (and would never have allowed my son to use such a service while I still had the power to forbid anything to him) this is not illegal in Europe as long as European registered aircraft are used. And as long as the cost is shared between all occupants, including the pilot, and the latter does not receive any kind of remuneration. And some more conditions are met most of which have been listed on this thread several times already.

(See for example page 4 of this document from EASA: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...AIR_OPS_EN.pdf)

I think you'll find that most insurers don't agree - they consider it commercial (from a discussion with an underwriter this week). I think almost all PPL owners/renters who ask the question of their insurers will be shocked. Of course, very few ask as they don't want to hear the answer. The courts will decide in the end.