Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

[2Donkeys]

Originally Posted by A and C

I know of a number of very good airshow pilots who have given up flying air shows because of the fallout from the Shoreham accident. Their main worry is that should they have an accident their families will end up on the street once the lawyers have finished with them.

(my emphasis)

I don't doubt for a minute that there have been plenty of display pilots following the Shoreham court case with interest. But the use of the term accident is worth a second look. Insurance is there to pay for accidents. When does an air crash go beyond being an accident?

Leaving courts out of things, the common link between Shoreham and the Sala/Ibbotson example is the question as to whether the actions of either pilot went beyond merely having an accident, and actually entered into the territory of being reckless. Reckless goes beyond being merely careless/negligent and deals with cases with the bad outcome was reasonably foreseeable, but ignored or disregarded by the pilot.

By entering the loop too low and not escaping from it when he failed to achieve the gate height, the argument is being made that Andy Hill was reckless rather than careless. Likewise, if it transpires as is widely suggested that colour-blind David Ibbotson conducted a flight at night in icing conditions without even so much as a night rating or any form of valid instrument qualification, then he might well be judged reckless.

David Ibbotson won't end up in court, but when it comes to insurance, many insurers will argue that their policy is there to pay out to the careless, but not to the reckless.

Display pilots shouldn't give up on the back of Shoreham, any more than any of us should stop flying with passengers. But it does up the ante to make sure that we do things by the book.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot

I'm not suggesting that we adopt the same approach to aviation as to road safety - quite the opposite in fact - but the fact that globally every single GA crash is deemed newsworthy suggests to me that this activity, when carried out sensibly, is actually very safe indeed but that the general public (and my brother in law especially!!) think that he takes his life in his hands when flying GA. We are still all more likely to cop it on the way to the airfield!

That is because we are held to a higher standard than anything else.
And when it's gross pilot error, we are villains.
When we go down fighting, we are heroic.

​​​​​Aviation is still something that defies belief in a lot of people.
I know I still "how the f*** does that thing fly?!" when I see an A380 in the skies.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Originally Posted by jumpseater

i can’t see what the issue is with more ramp checks, if the legislation is sufficient, then surely more ramp checks will enable that legislation to be enforced. Im Not sure what you mean by dealing with it ourselves, if you mean talking to a ‘grey operator’ what power do ‘you/we’ have to prevent the operation taking place? If current law isn’t being enforced by the authorities, any discussions with an operator are likely to be unproductive. If the regulators raise the profile with thorough ramp inspections, and subsequent enforcement/prosecutions for transgressions, surely that’s the way forward. I know some of our local UK police, their resources are already stretched to a microscopic thin blue line. They’re highly unlikely to be able to provide an adequate response and investigation to a call regarding a grey charter. The CAA have the legal instruments to really tackle this issue, but they need to take effective action.

A short study of aircraft movements and a few discreet questions around problem airfields would soon identify the grey charter operators.
These operators don't just do one or two flights a year.
PPL pilots accumulating large hours between medicals would also help identify specific pilots for some gentle questions once their name pops up on a flight plan.

Proactive enforcement is not difficult.

[ATC Watcher]

PPL pilots accumulating large hours between medicals would also help identify specific pilots for some gentle questions once their name pops up on a flight plan.

If you enforce this, there are easy way to go around this as hours are self declarative for PPL .
And even if you regulate that you have to bring a cerified log book when going to renew your medical , Pilots log books can be altered easily and even the highly regulated aircraft maintenance books can be "tuned in" to fit the purpose if you own the aircraft,
as to the name on a flight plan , not sure a data base on this is possible, but if it did and you wanted to avoid being flagged, just phone the plans or file on internet and write what you want on that field.
Do not underestimate the ingenuity of those that want to beat the system.
Spending a bit of time in Africa opens the mind to what is possible

[funfly]

That is because we are held to a higher standard than anything else.
And when it's gross pilot error, we are villains.

That's because our errors often result in death.
Because of that pilots, even GA pilots, have a responsibility, they are in control of a machine that can do serious damage if handled incorrectly.
In my opinion the majority of pilots do take this responsibility seriously.

[S-Works]

The problem here is that the pilots doing the flying are the guys desperate to fly full stop and will take any opportunity. They will listen to the men behind the scenes taking the money saying that its all OK and that its a loop hole, a grey area, a private flight whatever the excuse is and go and do it. I have another friend flying a Pilatus that I have warned recently about the type of flying he is doing and I could see it go in one ear and out the other as the seduction of being able to fly for free is so great. He assured me because it was on the CI register that it was not covered by the CAA and AOC requirements. Until we can make the pilots understand and learn to say NO we are on hiding to nowhere and blaming the regulator for lack of oversight is unfair......

[MPN11]

The Guernsey Register (2-xxxx) make quite interesting reading, not least or the wide scope of aircraft and companies represented.

https://www.2-reg.com/wp-content/upl...e_20190201.pdf

I defer to experts on the legal aspects of the CI/Guernsey register {Jersey only has a few aircraft registered I believe [ZJ-xxx])

[Webby737]

Originally Posted by MPN11

The Guernsey Register (2-xxxx) make quite interesting reading, not least or the wide scope of aircraft and companies represented.

https://www.2-reg.com/wp-content/upl...e_20190201.pdf

I defer to experts on the legal aspects of the CI/Guernsey register {Jersey only has a few aircraft registered I believe [ZJ-xxx])

I would assume that many of these would be registered in Guernsey due to the favourable tax benefits, looking at the aircraft types and companies listed quite a few of those would probably be on temporary registration between leases.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by funfly

That's because our errors often result in death.
Because of that pilots, even GA pilots, have a responsibility, they are in control of a machine that can do serious damage if handled incorrectly.
In my opinion the majority of pilots do take this responsibility seriously.

A previous boss of mine had this on his wall, as true today as it was when written in the 1930s:

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by S-Works

The problem here is that the pilots doing the flying are the guys desperate to fly full stop and will take any opportunity.....

... and, of course, the only sources of decent paid income to fly, the airlines, saying they will not even consider you unless you have n hundred or n thousand of those expensive hours in your logbook.

Used to do weekend skydiving, we never paid our pilots but there was a queue of those offering their services, for the hours. Never occurred to actually charge them, but on reflection could have even done so.

[what next]

Originally Posted by S-Works

The problem here is that the pilots doing the flying are the guys desperate to fly full stop and will take any opportunity. They will listen to the men behind the scenes taking the money saying that its all OK and that its a loop hole, a grey area, a private flight whatever the excuse is and go and do it.

Yes certainly, and I am not the one who is going to cast the first stone here. We all (or at least quite a few of us) have performed one or the other flight with questionable legality at some point during our careers. Like helping out somewhere without asking too many questions. Sometimes an opportunity is too nice to say NO right away. Like a weekend trip to France with all expenses covered for in a plane that I couldn't afford to rent myself. Who can resist a temptation like this, especially if everybody tells you it is "OK".

I have been ramp checked on countless occasions (mostly when performing legitimate commercial work, rarely when doing "private" flights - it really should be the other way round!) but only once ever have the passengers been asked: "Who has arranged this flight and who is paying for your ticket?". If that would be the first question asked by every ramp inspector then the kind of flying that we talk about here would dry out within a year.

But this accident is not only about the legal aspects of the flight itself. It is even more about flying outside one's license privileges and outside one's competence. And here I completely fail to understand how someone can accept an "it's OK". When I don't have a night rating I do not depart at night. No matter what people tell me. It can never be "OK". And there is not a single pilot out there who does not know that.

[Silver_Light]

What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?

On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.

His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?

And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?

[Right Hand Thread]

Originally Posted by deltafox44

The missing body would have been ejected from the plane at the impact.

That's a pretty assertive statement. How exactly do you know this to be fact?

[Webby737]

Originally Posted by Silver_Light

W
And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?

That will be for the AAIB to decide.
Unfortunately, if what has been discussed here regarding Mr. Ibbotson's licence privileges turns out to be true, he'll most likely become the scapegoat.
It wouldn't surprise me if whoever arranged this trip gets off scott free.

[runway30]

Originally Posted by Silver_Light

What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?

On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.

His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?

And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?

Here are the various parties

Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didn’t specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didn’t charge Sala.

David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes.

Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing.

David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL.

You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what.

[ATC Watcher]

S-works :

Until we can make the pilots understand and learn to say NO we are on hiding to nowhere and blaming the regulator for lack of oversight is unfair......

Spot on !

what next :

But this accident is not only about the legal aspects of the flight itself. It is even more about flying outside one's license privileges and outside one's competence.

Absolutely. and I agree that we all ( certainly I) at one point or another in our flying life were more than tempted to cross the line to make " that flight " ..and only our ability (or not) to say No made the difference.

Siver light :

who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?

If ,as all indications so far seem to say, , this was a private flight using a private aircraft , only the Pilot in Command is responsible, no-one else.

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by runway30

Here are the various parties

Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didn’t specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didn’t charge Sala.

David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes.

Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing.

David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL.

You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what.

Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.

You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.

If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.

[runway30]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

S-works :
Spot on !

what next :
Absolutely. and I agree that we all ( certainly I) at one point or another in our flying life were more than tempted to cross the line to make " that flight " ..and only our ability (or not) to say No made the difference.

Siver light :
If ,as all indications so far seem to say, , this was a private flight using a private aircraft , only the Pilot in Command is responsible, no-one else.

If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by runway30

If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.

Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved ? as I have read and heard so far.

[Silver_Light]

Well something did circulate in the media that David Henderson had a conversation on Facebook with David Ibbotson where Ibbotson stated that he was rusty.

Here you have a pilot making quite a worrying admission and another pilot who seems to not take a blind bit of notice to someone saying they are rusty?

Henderson should have acted immediately to find a suitable replacement?